The Electric/Spiritual Universe of Jesus Christ

[BashfulAnthony]

BA,

Fair enough - it's no-one's business but your own. I was just struck though by the illogicality of asking for something when the god who could grant it already knows you better than you know yourself.

It's analogous to a child who wants a certain thing for Christmas: his father knows it, but would much rather hear him genuinely ask for it, rather than just assume he'll get it.

[bluehillside Retd.]

BA,

It's analogous to a child who wants a certain thing for Christmas: his father knows it, but would much rather hear him genuinely ask for it, rather than just assume he'll get it.

It's not analogous at all - at least not unless the father is also a mindreader, which is the claim made for god. A god that thought, "I know what's best for you and I know what you want, but I'm not going to do it unless I hear it from your lips" would be a pretty petulant god I'd have thought. 

[BashfulAnthony]

BA,

It's not analogous at all - at least not unless the father is also a mindreader, which is the claim made for god. A god that thought, "I know what's best for you and I know what you want, but I'm not going to do it unless I hear it from your lips" would be a pretty petulant god I'd have thought.

Nothing to do with petulance.  It's just the right way to do things, from a human stand-point..                                                             

[bluehillside Retd.]

BA,

Nothing to do with petulance.  It's just the right way to do things, from a human stand-point.. 

But not from a divine one - or at least not if you think that divinity knows everything anyway, and moreover knows it better than you do.

[BashfulAnthony]

BA,

But not from a divine one - or at least not if you think that divinity knows everything anyway, and moreover knows it better than you do.

I shall continue to do it the way I believe, thanks.

[bluehillside Retd.]

BA,

I shall continue to do it the way I believe, thanks.

No doubt. Like I said - it's no-one's business but your own. I just wondered whether then inherent paradox of praying to an omniscient god had struck you at all.

It seems not.

[BashfulAnthony]

BA,

No doubt. Like I said - it's no-one's business but your own. I just wondered whether then inherent paradox of praying to an omniscient god had struck you at all.

It seems not.

I have spent a life-time coming to my conclusions; a life-time of study and thought.  It has included many times when I've doubted;  when I've pondered over the many problems, but I finish happy in my faith.  Thank you for your concern.

[ippy]

Your post was answered in post #458 ippy. If I were as rude as you I could make nasty remarks and ridicule towards you because of it...but I just put it down to heavy brain-washing.

Jesus Christ is an expert in this field and I know your health and your rudeness will feel much better for it.

Hi there Nick, I noticed you used brainwashing when you meant indoctrination again. (look them up in the OED).

Since when has saying you've answered someones/anyones question when you've not done anything of the sort been considered to be polite, if you want to start throwing stones there's no need to act surprised when you have some returned.

All I pointed out to you is that you need to verify both the bible and the idea of god together, as established facts, both at the same time, which to date you haven't, before either one can be used to back up the other and to be fair to you nor has anyone else been able to supply evidence of any kind that would support either one or the other.

If such conformational evidence was found, or had been surly it would have become a worldwide media event and since that hasn't ever happened Nick, it should be telling you something.

Any chance of an answer Nick, without the usual unwanted sermon? Just a clear answer will do Nick     

ippy

P S please just answer the question asked Nick, I'm done with sermons.

 

[SwordOfTheSpirit]

It's analogous to a child who wants a certain thing for Christmas: his father knows it, but would much rather hear him genuinely ask for it, rather than just assume he'll get it.

Good analogy BashfulAnthony.

Bluehillside is conflating what someone wants with what someone needs.

[SwordOfTheSpirit]

If such conformational evidence was found, or had been surly it would have become a worldwide media event and since that hasn't ever happened Nick, it should be telling you something.

Yes. It's telling me that your argument is flawed.

[torridon]

You are going ahead of my knowledge base...but the implication is that it will. Mainly because Almighty God will be working with us and if he kick-started this planet into existence he can certainly guide us in these matters...not forgetting that after the great turmoil expected the tectonic-plates will be more settled.

The idea of an earthly life on an active and dangerous rocky planet doesn't seem consistent with the idea of heaven at all to me.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sword,

Good analogy BashfulAnthony.

Bad analogy for the reason I gave earlier - a mortal father isn't omniscient; a (supposed) god (supposedly) is.

Bluehillside is conflating what someone wants with what someone needs.

No bluehillside isn't - and in any case that would be an argument against praying. The supplicant would know what he wants; god would know what he needs. Why therefore would someone think praying for his wants would supervene upon what god knows he needs?

[bluehillside Retd.]

BA,

I have spent a life-time coming to my conclusions; a life-time of study and thought.  It has included many times when I've doubted;  when I've pondered over the many problems, but I finish happy in my faith.  Thank you for your concern.

No concern, just disinterested enquiry. If the contradiction in praying for your wants so as to supervene upon your god's knowledge of your needs (with friends like Sword, who needs...) doesn't trouble you at all then so be it.   

[NicholasMarks]

Hi there Nick, I noticed you used brainwashing when you meant indoctrination again. (look them up in the OED).

Since when has saying you've answered someones/anyones question when you've not done anything of the sort been considered to be polite, if you want to start throwing stones there's no need to act surprised when you have some returned.

All I pointed out to you is that you need to verify both the bible and the idea of god together, as established facts, both at the same time, which to date you haven't, before either one can be used to back up the other and to be fair to you nor has anyone else been able to supply evidence of any kind that would support either one or the other.

If such conformational evidence was found, or had been surly it would have become a worldwide media event and since that hasn't ever happened Nick, it should be telling you something.

Any chance of an answer Nick, without the usual unwanted sermon? Just a clear answer will do Nick     

ippy

P S please just answer the question asked Nick, I'm done with sermons.

 

Heads you win...tails I lose...hmmm....won't help you unify the fundamental field forces though...ippy.

[Gordon]

Good analogy BashfulAnthony.

Bluehillside is conflating what someone wants with what someone needs.

Nope - it is a bad analogy since, and unlike human parents, if your god is an 'omni' one then it knows not only what you want and whatever you need, which may or may not coincide, but also what you are going to get - it being omniscient and all.

So unless you pray for what is going to happen anyway you'd be asking your god to change its future plans for you, which compromises its 'omni' status, so if you want to preserve that notion then it could be said that your god is rather cruel by needlessly encouraging you to jump through pointless hoops for what it either is going to do anyway or doesn't ever intend to.

[NicholasMarks]

The idea of an earthly life on an active and dangerous rocky planet doesn't seem consistent with the idea of heaven at all to me.

You see torri...you open up a question with an answer that is long and detailed and which you already have a mental block against which prevents any effort to convince you otherwise. Most of the detail is in the Holy Bible...but that's too much trouble for you.

Perhaps the forth-coming Judgement will encourage you to look more earnestly but it isn't knowing the Judgement is coming that counts as much as sincere repentance. The science demands it and iniquity, atheists and down-right evil can only expect to embark on a long, never ending journey. I'm trying to guide you back to the fold...but it is up to you.

Just think...a world with no more war...no more distress...no more illness...no more death...and everlasting life...what a promise...but you must see that the awkward, the objectors, the defiant, those who can't be bothered to search out such a wonderful promise will only cause more of this grief that we are experiencing today...Ignore Jesus at your own cost.

 

[Nearly Sane]

Praying is in the main seen as a way of communication, I'm not getting that omniscience is an issue in this area really

[NicholasMarks]

BA,

No concern, just disinterested enquiry. If the contradiction in praying for your wants so as to supervene upon your god's knowledge of your needs (with friends like Sword, who needs...) doesn't trouble you at all then so be it.

I will let you into a sacred secret bluehillside, not realised by many but is the product of every single prayer spoken in the way Jesus taught us...and that is we hit the correct electric frequency to enable God's living waters to wash over us and wash through us and soothe and calm our own tired and worn out genetic health.

It is a spiritual water that reaches bodily parts that other waters cannot reach...but, I am afraid that humbleness, meekness and righteousness have a big part to play. All attainable by following Jesus Christ accurately.

[jjohnjil]

I think Nick's on to something.  Here's my take on it all.

God was relaxing in Heaven, a beautiful place with no problems or worries, and he's sitting on a beautiful beach, gazing up at the clouds.  He suddenly has an idea "Why am I sitting here all alone when I could have a relationship with 4 or 5 million people!"

So he decides on a scheme ... "I'll hurtle these clouds together and it is bound to cause a great big bang,  This will in turn cause tons and tons of dynamic energy to create a universe, and within a few billion years, stars will form, trillions of them.  I'll name them all and pick out a tiny planet revolving around one of them and that's where I'll start my ambitious project".

So he does this and soon after (well, over 9000000000 years later) life forms and 4000000000 years after that, Man arrives.  God looks at  his creation and he's well pleased.

There are 'soon' millions of people around but they're doing all sorts of naughty things ... so he drowns that lot and starts again.  Shortly after, when there are billions of people there, he realises they are still being naughty.  "I know what I'll do, I'll pick some little 14 yearold girl and make her pregnant and then I'll have a beautiful baby son"  He does the wicked deed and he is so proud!  "You're a real chip off the old block, JC!"

Then when JC is bigger, he thinks "I know, I'll have him nailed up and that will make all the sins of that rabble be washed away forever"

He does it and then after his lad has been dead for three days, he brings him round and shortly after takes him up to Heaven to sit at his feet.
 
Then when the Internet arrives, he sends Sparky and TW, Sassy and Vlad to bore the pants off everyone ... and he is well pleased with his work.

He is getting a bit fed up now though with millions of the little sods asking him favours every night so he's decided these will be the last days and so he dug a gigantic hole and filled it with burning sulphur - for all those who don't believe in him  ... and then he launched Wormwood to sort everyone out.

The End

[bluehillside Retd.]

NS,

Praying is in the main seen as a way of communication...

With whom, and for what purpose? BA for example has already told us that he prays every day to an omniscient god (who therefore knows better than BA does what BA's "needs" are) in order to persuade "Him" to provide "redemption" or some such. How so?

[ippy]

Yes. It's telling me that your argument is flawed.

If as you say my argument is flawed Sword, I would have " thought", it would have been a media event, "thought" it would have been amedia event and if this media event has happened Sword, enlighten me when was this?

Where's the flaw in that? Did I miss some kind of media event?

ippy

[NicholasMarks]

I think Nick's on to something.  Here's my take on it all.

God was relaxing in Heaven, a beautiful place with no problems or worries, and he's sitting on a beautiful beach, gazing up at the clouds.  He suddenly has an idea "Why am I sitting here all alone when I could have a relationship with 4 or 5 million people!"

So he decides on a scheme ... "I'll hurtle these clouds together and it is bound to cause a great big bang,  This will in turn cause tons and tons of dynamic energy to create a universe, and within a few billion years, stars will form, trillions of them.  I'll name them all and pick out a tiny planet revolving around one of them and that's where I'll start my ambitious project".

So he does this and soon after (well, over 9000000000 years later) life forms and 4000000000 years after that, Man arrives.  God looks at  his creation and he's well pleased.

There are 'soon' millions of people around but they're doing all sorts of naughty things ... so he drowns that lot and starts again.  Shortly after, when there are billions of people there, he realises they are still being naughty.  "I know what I'll do, I'll pick some little 14 yearold girl and make her pregnant and then I'll have a beautiful baby son"  He does the wicked deed and he is so proud!  "You're a real chip off the old block, JC!"

Then when JC is bigger, he thinks "I know, I'll have him nailed up and that will make all the sins of that rabble be washed away forever"

He does it and then after his lad has been dead for three days, he brings him round and shortly after takes him up to Heaven to sit at his feet.
 
Then when the Internet arrives, he sends Sparky and TW, Sassy and Vlad to bore the pants off everyone ... and he is well pleased with his work.

He is getting a bit fed up now though with millions of the little sods asking him favours every night so he's decided these will be the last days and so he dug a gigantic hole and filled it with burning sulphur - for all those who don't believe in him  ... and then he launched Wormwood to sort everyone out.

The End

Well...you are certainly picking up some useful points Jjohnjil but I am afraid that, like modern science, you have all the evidence but you are putting it together all wrong.

This dynamic energy has always been and always will be. Almighty God tells us of this nature of the universe and so does science in its conservation of energy principle.

If this material, under the personification of Almighty God, existed first then all science must be embodied within it...That is my key principle here, it is also Almighty God's, it is also Jesus Christ's and it should be modern sciences approach too instead of spending billions upon particles when the true nature of the universe is more like an invisible, undetectable water that is only visible either via the Holy Bible, or, via reason and logic...and...I'm afraid...you fail on both counts.

[ippy]

Heads you win...tails I lose...hmmm....won't help you unify the fundamental field forces though...ippy.

Nothing to do with win or lose Nick, I see you still refuse to answer a perfectly straight forward question, where's your verifiable evidence that would support both god and the bible together at the same time; I suspect you haven't got a scrap of combined evidence supporting your god bible belief? And that would explain your wrigle wrigle.

No sermons please Nick.

ippy.

[NicholasMarks]

Nothing to do with win or lose Nick, I see you still refuse to answer a perfectly straight forward question, where's your verifiable evidence that would support both god and the bible together at the same time; I suspect you haven't got a scrap of combined evidence supporting your god bible belief? And that would explain your wrigle wrigle.

No sermons please Nick.

ippy.

Your not denying science here are you ippy...and you aren't denying that this universe is so big and so old that it couldn't possibly harbour other people with a similar history to our own except perhaps a few million years more advanced than we are.

That is all you need to know to realise we have been visited by an authority...not of this world...that knows exactly where we are going and knows exactly how to bring around a profound Judgement. Wait for a natural disaster...warn them how they can be saved then leave it to those terrible forces of nature to save those who follow the given instructions accurately. 

Failure to believe in Jesus Christ is not a defence.

[ippy]

Your not denying science here are you ippy...and you aren't denying that this universe is so big and so old that it couldn't possibly harbour other people with a similar history to our own except perhaps a few million years more advanced than we are.

That is all you need to know to realise we have been visited by an authority...not of this world...that knows exactly where we are going and knows exactly how to bring around a profound Judgement. Wait for a natural disaster...warn them how they can be saved then leave it to those terrible forces of nature to save those who follow the given instructions accurately. 

Failure to believe in Jesus Christ is not a defence.

No Nick, I'm asking that question that you are avoiding giving an answer to, it looks like you're avoiding giving an answer at all costs, why's that? You haven't got an answer?

Come on Nick answer without giving me a load of sermon like old tosh.

ippy