The Electric/Spiritual Universe of Jesus Christ

[Rhiannon]

How some beliefs work is that the stupid beliefs of some stupid cunts cause innocent victims - not always, but typically and tragically children - of other people's stupid ideas to die.

I understand that much.

I’m not going to disagree. Still not evil though.

[Rhiannon]

Except they think it is less harm than losing the consequences for the soul. You have talked before of your smacking children in certain circumstances. By your combined logic, i.e. Any action that brings harm is evil, even if it is seen as a leader harm, then you are evil.

Now I don't think you are evil, I just think you are misguided. Same with the JWs. That the consequences are worse doesn't change the principle. Evil is knowing that it is worse than the alternative and still doing it.

Pretty much.

[Shaker]

Religion can be used by an abusive parent, seen it first hand, but then so can education, ideas about 'healthy living' , politics... anything really.

It's utter bollockry to suggest that a child raised in religion will lack critical thinking and won't be able to decide for themselves. .

I would say that far from being bollockry, children raised in a religion are less likely to have critical thinking skills for precisely and exactly that reason; because religion has precisely zero to do with critical thinking skills. Get that shit in early, and it's hard to get out again. Not impossible, but difficult compared to the alternative.

The decline in religious belief reflects people doing exactly that

This not only seems to me to be arse about face, but I think there is hard evidence to this effect. The decline in religious belief is not because kids are being raised with a religion as much as they have ever been but then seeing through it as the festering horseshit that it actually is, but because kids aren't being raised in a religion at all in the first place.

I've referred to this before - possibly ad nauseam - but a long time ago, and again at my later request, Professor Davey posted some hard stats about those (the minority) raised in a religion as against those who are not. Those who are raised without a religion are vanishingly unlikely later to adopt one. The retention rates of those who are raised in a religion - i.e. those who are raised in one and who keep one - are minuscule.

[Rhiannon]

Ah, so decline among religion is because of high birth rates among atheists...

As you say, retention rates are low. People raised with religion still decide it’s bollockry. I did.

[Shaker]

Ah, so decline among religion is because of high birth rates among atheists...

As you say, retention rates are low. People raised with religion still decide it’s bollockry. I did.

Indeed. But it's not as I say; Prof. Diddy did the hard yards and crunched the numbers. That's his thing. The take-home message is that those raised with a religion (in Western secular liberal democracies) is the lowest it has ever been. Those raised in no religious tradition or belief is the highest it's ever been.

[Shaker]

Evil is knowing that it is worse than the alternative and still doing it.

Diet-dependent, condition dependent (of course), typically type II diabetes can be controlled (at best) by a carefully monitored diet and, if not that, carefully monitored diet with insulin injections.

Give up on both, as some parents have, and you have an ugly death on your hands as a result of your stupid and irrational, unfounded, unevidenced beliefs about the nature of reality. Your kids; your choice (alas; I wish it were not so, but unfortunately it is).

The alternative to a restricted diet and/or insulin injections is a not very nice death. I reject your "alternative" for any but those of mental competence to choose as much.

We allow this stupid shit, for some reason.

[Rhiannon]

Indeed. But it's not as I say; Prof. Diddy did the hard yards and crunched the numbers. That's his thing. The take-home message is that those raised with a religion (in Western secular liberal democracies) is the lowest it has ever been. Those raised in no religious tradition or belief is the highest it's ever been.

We used to have the majority of the population as believers. It’s the parents, grandparents and great grandparents who used their critical thinking to decide that they didn’t like what the church stands for or teaches. Today’s unbelief is their legacy and it will continue to grow; of my cousins and myself, all raised religious, only one still believes.

[Shaker]

We used to have the majority of the population as believers.

Yup. Unfortunately, but yes.

It’s the parents, grandparents and great grandparents who used their critical thinking to decide that they didn’t like what the church stands for or teaches.

Diminishing returns. Emphasis on both words. And not in the usual sense of getting out more over time than you put in, but the opposite: diminished religion (the bad stuff), but the greater returns.

Today’s unbelief is their legacy and it will continue to grow

Thank so much goodness, yes.

[Enki]

I agree with you Rhi, there's plenty of good in JWs. People always latch on to the blood transfusion business as if it is the only thing they believe in. As you say, they are misguided but so is everyone in one way or another.
.....

Not just "these days" but for a very long time. I don't know how many innocent children or anybody at all died over the years in the past because of refusing a blood transfusion, do you know? I'll try and find out.

https://www.quora.com/How-many-Jehovahs-Witnesses-die-prematurely-every-year-because-they-refuse-blood-transfusions
...

Hi Robbie,

I'm not going to get involved with any discussion on the word 'evil' as I consider the word to have too many distasteful connotations, especially religious ones. I rarely, if ever, use the word, not even as an emotional reaction, if I can help it.

However I will comment on the part of your post that I have quoted above. Think of it as part of your research.

In the sixties, my wife was a nurse and not long after our first child was born she told me a rather horrendous story. On her ward a young(about 15 years old) boy had been brought in who had a severe case of bleeding in the joints(hemarthrosis). This could be treated with certain drugs, but because he had lost so much blood, he desperately needed a blood transfusion. His parents were JWs and flatly refused either the drugs or the transfusions. My wife saw and heard them praying, kneeling at his bedside, asking their god to help him and to give them the strength to reject the doctors' advice that he needed certain drugs and a blood transfusion(actually more than one}. My wife also told me that when his parents weren't on the ward, he told her that he didn't want to die. He was in great pain. A few days later he died, and all the nurses were shocked by this rather traumatic event. In fact my wife was one of the nurses who helped lay him out.

Although I had known this for many years, I asked my wife to recollect the facts surrounding this event, so this account is basically what she told me a couple of days ago when the subject of blood transfusions came up in this thread.

[Robbie]

Oh that is really horrible enki, a truly grim tale.

It must have been so different in the 1960s, children had no rights and were virtually property of their parents. Nowadays the boy would have had the transfusion regardless of parents' wishes, especially as he said he wanted to live. Poor young lad. I wonder why they refused the medication too.

I've been reading similar bits and pieces in between doing other things this evening. Also have a film lined up called Truth be Told. I will dream of Watchtower tonight!

Thanks.

[Rhiannon]

Enki, there aren’t thecwords. I remember my mum telling me about this happening in the 70’s. I’d hope that transfusions would happen these days thanks to court orders. You could argue that a similar case applies to anti vaxxers and the risks and suffering that they cause.

[SusanDoris]

We used to have the majority of the population as believers. It’s the parents, grandparents and great grandparents who used their critical thinking to decide that they didn’t like what the church stands for or teaches. Today’s unbelief is their legacy and it will continue to grow; of my cousins and myself, all raised religious, only one still believes.

But, with hindsight, what an utter  waste of valuable critical thinking time believing that there was a God for so long. What should have happened in education is that we should have been taught all about religious beliefs, not direct belief in some God.

[Rhiannon]

But, with hindsight, what an utter  waste of valuable critical thinking time believing that there was a God for so long. What should have happened in education is that we should have been taught all about religious beliefs, not direct belief in some God.

But as noted previously, religion is what we do. Not doing religion reflects that.

[Roses]

Hi Robbie,

I'm not going to get involved with any discussion on the word 'evil' as I consider the word to have too many distasteful connotations, especially religious ones. I rarely, if ever, use the word, not even as an emotional reaction, if I can help it.

However I will comment on the part of your post that I have quoted above. Think of it as part of your research.

In the sixties, my wife was a nurse and not long after our first child was born she told me a rather horrendous story. On her ward a young(about 15 years old) boy had been brought in who had a severe case of bleeding in the joints(hemarthrosis). This could be treated with certain drugs, but because he had lost so much blood, he desperately needed a blood transfusion. His parents were JWs and flatly refused either the drugs or the transfusions. My wife saw and heard them praying, kneeling at his bedside, asking their god to help him and to give them the strength to reject the doctors' advice that he needed certain drugs and a blood transfusion(actually more than one}. My wife also told me that when his parents weren't on the ward, he told her that he didn't want to die. He was in great pain. A few days later he died, and all the nurses were shocked by this rather traumatic event. In fact my wife was one of the nurses who helped lay him out.

Although I had known this for many years, I asked my wife to recollect the facts surrounding this event, so this account is basically what she told me a couple of days ago when the subject of blood transfusions came up in this thread.

Truly horrific, and shows what a sick cult it is. It has an iron like grip on its members, who would sooner let a child die than be kicked out of it.

[ekim]

But, with hindsight, what an utter  waste of valuable critical thinking time believing that there was a God for so long. What should have happened in education is that we should have been taught all about religious beliefs, not direct belief in some God.

Critical thinking is usually suppressed by thought control processes organised by the few to manipulate the many.  It is more often than not based upon reward and punishment, success and failure, often in subtle forms.  Not only does it appear in religious organisations but also in politics where there are extreme forms like Nazism and Communism and in business with more subtle forms of mass marketing.  It wouldn't surprise me to find it in education.   Now, with the mass communication opportunities of the Internet and mobile phone technology, the world is their oyster.

[Rhiannon]

Ok, so here's a thing. My critical thinking skills got me to the point where the nuts and bolts of Christianity didn't work for me. But I still experienced God as real, just something that I had to lose my dogmatic ideas about. Then, one day, the feeling of realness stopped, like a light switch being flipped. It was there one minute, then it wasn't, and it scared me witless at the time.

Looking back on it, the only way it makes sense is to think that my brain was firing on a 'god is real' wiring, and something made that stop; it literally was like a switch going off in my brain. No idea what made that happen (I wasn't in a crisis of any kind, there was no physical injury or illness or a big life change), or why it was so sudden, but it is the only thing that makes sense.

[ekim]

Ok, so here's a thing. My critical thinking skills got me to the point where the nuts and bolts of Christianity didn't work for me. But I still experienced God as real, just something that I had to lose my dogmatic ideas about. Then, one day, the feeling of realness stopped, like a light switch being flipped. It was there one minute, then it wasn't, and it scared me witless at the time.

Looking back on it, the only way it makes sense is to think that my brain was firing on a 'god is real' wiring, and something made that stop; it literally was like a switch going off in my brain. No idea what made that happen (I wasn't in a crisis of any kind, there was no physical injury or illness or a big life change), or why it was so sudden, but it is the only thing that makes sense.

Perhaps the thing to ask is, you had an real experience but what made you name it 'God' and you said it was a feeling, can you indicate the nature of that feeling and would you want it repeated?

[Enki]

Ok, so here's a thing. My critical thinking skills got me to the point where the nuts and bolts of Christianity didn't work for me. But I still experienced God as real, just something that I had to lose my dogmatic ideas about. Then, one day, the feeling of realness stopped, like a light switch being flipped. It was there one minute, then it wasn't, and it scared me witless at the time.

Looking back on it, the only way it makes sense is to think that my brain was firing on a 'god is real' wiring, and something made that stop; it literally was like a switch going off in my brain. No idea what made that happen (I wasn't in a crisis of any kind, there was no physical injury or illness or a big life change), or why it was so sudden, but it is the only thing that makes sense.

I found this really useful, Rhi, as I have never experienced God as real in any way. It helps me, at least a little, in understanding those who have had that experience, and the way you describe your change in attitude(belief?) helps me to understand the panic that you so obviously felt. The nearest I can get to this is my attitude towards homosexuality which was a complete emotional rejection of it. However, I remember, I changed my attitude many years ago, when I realised that I was a victim of my own dogmatic emotions. Now, I'm completely free of this emotional baggage, and completely accepting of same sex relationships as I am with heterosexual relationships.

Thank you for this.

[NicholasMarks]

enki/ekim/Rhainnon/Littleroses/SusanDoris/Robbie/Shaker/NearlySane/Anchorman...

The over-riding fact you are all dismissing and which is vitally important to each and everyone of us is that we each have a spirit...an electrical being that resides within us as a natural property that can grow in righteousness, else fail, because of the abuse it is subjected to...or, as the Bible likes to call it...sin.

This spiritual energy is what Jesus lived and died showing us about...It is an indestructible energy, as it needs to be to create stars and atoms...but it is also very gentle, very caring and very loving. The harshness of this world causes us to become hard-hearted but it doesn't alter the fact that Jesus Christ's method of operation can soothe and calm the genetic distress we inflict upon ourselves if we follow him accurately...as he, and he alone says we should. We would then find that our new meekness is a radio frequency that allows this spiritual water to reach into the genetic chaos we call our health in a wonderful way...but quietly and calmly following the accurate teaching of Jesus Christ is an imperative...and those that do, as Jesus himself said...will never die.

[Gordon]

enki/ekim/Rhainnon/Littleroses/SusanDoris/Robbie/Shaker/NearlySane/Anchorman...

The over-riding fact you are all dismissing and which is vitally important to each and everyone of us is that we each have a spirit...an electrical being that resides within us as a natural property that can grow in righteousness, else fail, because of the abuse it is subjected to...or, as the Bible likes to call it...sin.

Here's the problem, Nick: I can't agree with your claim that this 'spirit' is a fact or a natural property. I don't think I have one, and I can see no good reason to entertain the notion that such a thing is in any sense real.

This spiritual energy is what Jesus lived and died showing us about...It is an indestructible energy, as it needs to be to create stars and atoms...but it is also very gentle, very caring and very loving. The harshness of this world causes us to become hard-hearted but it doesn't alter the fact that Jesus Christ's method of operation can soothe and calm the genetic distress we inflict upon ourselves if we follow him accurately...as he, and he alone says we should. We would then find that our new meekness is a radio frequency that allows this spiritual water to reach into the genetic chaos we call our health in a wonderful way...but quietly and calmly following the accurate teaching of Jesus Christ is an imperative...and those that do, as Jesus himself said...will never die.

This is no more than fanciful thinking, Nick: I've no doubt that you are sincere in this, but I'm afraid your sincerity isn't sufficient to make it true for me too.

[Anchorman]

enki/ekim/Rhainnon/Littleroses/SusanDoris/Robbie/Shaker/NearlySane/Anchorman...

The over-riding fact you are all dismissing and which is vitally important to each and everyone of us is that we each have a spirit...an electrical being that resides within us as a natural property that can grow in righteousness, else fail, because of the abuse it is subjected to...or, as the Bible likes to call it...sin.

This spiritual energy is what Jesus lived and died showing us about...It is an indestructible energy, as it needs to be to create stars and atoms...but it is also very gentle, very caring and very loving. The harshness of this world causes us to become hard-hearted but it doesn't alter the fact that Jesus Christ's method of operation can soothe and calm the genetic distress we inflict upon ourselves if we follow him accurately...as he, and he alone says we should. We would then find that our new meekness is a radio frequency that allows this spiritual water to reach into the genetic chaos we call our health in a wonderful way...but quietly and calmly following the accurate teaching of Jesus Christ is an imperative...and those that do, as Jesus himself said...will never die.

Translation, please?

[torridon]

enki/ekim/Rhainnon/Littleroses/SusanDoris/Robbie/Shaker/NearlySane/Anchorman...

The over-riding fact you are all dismissing and which is vitally important to each and everyone of us is that we each have a spirit...an electrical being that resides within us as a natural property that can grow in righteousness, else fail, because of the abuse it is subjected to...or, as the Bible likes to call it...sin.

I don't think all the above mentioned posters dismiss the idea of an indwelling spirit.  However, I do not think anyone with an interest in accuracy is going to agree that the nature of said being is 'electrical'.  Electricity is about the the flow of electromagnetic charge as happens comfortably in copper wiring for example. We aren't made of copper wiring.  Please try to be not so inaccurate in future.

[NicholasMarks]

Gordon/Anchorman/torri...

Of course, if you haven't read the teaching of Jesus Christ then you are already at a disadvantage...because he wanted us to know that our inner electrical spirit is the work-horse of the human being. Jesus exclusively talks of it as our, his, and Almighty God's spirit...but I have incorporated it into the electric nature of the universe...because it is all the same energy doing variations of the same work. We wouldn't know about it if it wasn't for Jesus Christ showing us how resurrection works. He returned to his own righteous vessel but we are placed in new vessels just as the wine-maker puts his new wine into new vessels...remember that one Anchorman. Also remember how Jesus descended into the bowels of hell (the ether) declaring he had snatched the keys of life and death out of Satan's hand. This tells us that we all go into the ether regardless, but unless we follow the righteous path of Jesus Christ beforehand, we stay there.

We can paste our own profile on our own righteous spirit, and live according to the special righteous laws which will, ultimately, when we have got it right...give us everlasting. life.

Apparently, everyone existing in the ether will have one last chance because everyone will be called back for God's Judgement...but I would suggest we don't leave it to chance...especially when we have been warned about a grave danger lurking within our immediate future.

[Gordon]

Gordon/Anchorman/torri...

Of course, if you haven't read the teaching of Jesus Christ then you are already at a disadvantage

How do you know this 'teaching' of Jesus is reliable: in what ways have you excluded the possibility that what is attributed to Jesus might involve mistake, exaggeration or lies?

After all, if these risks aren't meaningfully excluded then your claim of accuracy is baseless and this 'teaching' can be safely dismissed. 

[Anchorman]

Gordon/Anchorman/torri...

Of course, if you haven't read the teaching of Jesus Christ then you are already at a disadvantage...because he wanted us to know that our inner electrical spirit is the work-horse of the human being. Jesus exclusively talks of it as our, his, and Almighty God's spirit...but I have incorporated it into the electric nature of the universe...because it is all the same energy doing variations of the same work. We wouldn't know about it if it wasn't for Jesus Christ showing us how resurrection works. He returned to his own righteous vessel but we are placed in new vessels just as the wine-maker puts his new wine into new vessels...remember that one Anchorman. Also remember how Jesus descended into the bowels of hell (the ether) declaring he had snatched the keys of life and death out of Satan's hand. This tells us that we all go into the ether regardless, but unless we follow the righteous path of Jesus Christ beforehand, we stay there.

We can paste our own profile on our own righteous spirit, and live according to the special righteous laws which will, ultimately, when we have got it right...give us everlasting. life.

Apparently, everyone existing in the ether will have one last chance because everyone will be called back for God's Judgement...but I would suggest we don't leave it to chance...especially when we have been warned about a grave danger lurking within our immediate future.

"....because he wanted us to know that our inner electrical spirit...."
I stopped at that point.
He Didn't, NM.
Not once in any translation of Scripture, is 'electrical' mentioned.
Not even the "I-can't-believe-its-not-Scripture" version AKA the NWT.
If you must bring in the teaching of Christ, be accurate about it.
Give those teachings - not your interpretation of them.

Oh, how are things going on the "producing real, verifiable evidence" front?