Author Topic: Repent the end is nigh  (Read 43580 times)

Anchorman

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Re: Repent the end is nigh
« Reply #75 on: October 26, 2016, 06:42:56 PM »
There are many Christians who believe that every word of the Bible is true, without requiring a belief in transubstantiation, Floo.  One has to look at what the words say in context, rather than in isolation - which is, sadly, what many non-believers and even some believers do.
There are many Christians who believe that every word of the Bible is true, without requiring a belief in transubstantiation, Floo.  One has to look at what the words say in context, rather than in isolation - which is, sadly, what many non-believers and even some believers do.







Wot Hope said.
It's perfectly possible to accept Scripture as the word of God without accepting it as literal history - which is not its' purpose.
(Though, as I've pointed out, the events of Scripture and the wider world do coincide to a remarkable extent from the tentjh century BC onward)
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

wigginhall

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Re: Repent the end is nigh
« Reply #76 on: October 26, 2016, 06:49:45 PM »
I thought that Dicky was making the point that no-one is a literalist.   Or at any rate,  literalism always has exceptions. 
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Walter

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Re: Repent the end is nigh
« Reply #77 on: October 26, 2016, 07:10:13 PM »
do you know what Wiggs, I'm literally sick of that word. its literally everywhere!

I thank you

wigginhall

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Re: Repent the end is nigh
« Reply #78 on: October 26, 2016, 07:15:58 PM »
No, please, on the other hand, allow me to return your thanks a thousand fold, literally sincerely and Biblically. 
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Walter

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Re: Repent the end is nigh
« Reply #79 on: October 26, 2016, 07:27:17 PM »
....the end is nigh, brace yourself, as I told the wife during our afternoon delight session earlier today, literally.

wigginhall

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Re: Repent the end is nigh
« Reply #80 on: October 26, 2016, 07:32:16 PM »
Walter, I find a brace too much now at my age,  I said to the wife, half a noggin is better than, oh I don't know, then she fell asleep.
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Walter

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Re: Repent the end is nigh
« Reply #81 on: October 26, 2016, 07:42:13 PM »
wigs, keep in touch with yourself mate!

Brownie

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Re: Repent the end is nigh
« Reply #82 on: October 26, 2016, 08:27:00 PM »
Which basically means, basically take yourself in hand, Walter.
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

Spud

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Re: Repent the end is nigh
« Reply #83 on: October 26, 2016, 11:00:19 PM »
Floo

I don't think Spud is arguing for a 'literal' truth in these instances (at least as far as dating the Last Judgment, End times etc). What he's doing is promoting an extremely convoluted interpretation of a number of scriptures. If he were arguing for a literal truth on these matters, then there wouldn't be such a devious distortion of the meaning of such words as "soon", "quickly", in "this generation" etc. We all know what the literal meanings of such words are (and many modern biblical scholars of a critical outlook are quite happy with such literal interpretations here). The reason why fundamentalists and evangelicals are not happy with a literal interpretation of the time-interval involved is that it leads to the horrific implication that Jesus got it wrong.

This fits in with the usual procedure of fundamentalists and evangelicals: unless the scriptures are obviously of a poetic nature such as Psalms and Song of Solomon, they are quite happy to proceed "literally". This brings problems, because contradictions and other anomalies soon arise, and there are many - as you well know. It is then that the whole apparatus of convoluted exegesis and interpretation comes in to play, until the obstacle is explained away, and then the literal reading can continue until the next stumbling block.
So while such Christians certainly believe that all the Bible is true , it's certainly not the case that it's all a literal truth that's being asserted.

You need to look at the bigger picture. From the beginning, God promised that he would send a Messiah to save mankind from sin and death. Until that time, he set up the sun, moon and stars as signs that told men about God and when to worship him. Passover was celebrated at the first full moon after the vernal equinox, for example.

When the Messiah came and fulfilled the Passover and other festivals by his work of salvation, the whole system became obsolete. Jesus gave the Jews "The sign of Jonah". This was the death and resurrection of the prophet, followed by 40 days during which they had to repent to avoid destruction. This was a sign to Israel that after the death and resurrection of the Messiah, there would be 40 years for them to repent and start relying on Jesus rather than the temple sacrifices. But they continued to use the temple for sacrifices even though that system was obsolete. The sacrificial system fulfilled, it was destroyed completely in AD 70. This is prophesied in Joel 2:31, pictured as the sun and moon being eclipsed, because they were the 'clock' that the system relied on.

As the gospel of the Messiah's salvation was preached to the nations, all their systems of belief would be replaced by the 'sun' of Christ, and Christianity the true religion. This is described in Joel 3:15 as the sun and moon being darkened for the Gentiles. It is what Matthew 24:29-31 is about. The sign would appear of the Son of Man in heaven: in other words, people would understand that Jesus is king, because they would see the tribulation of the saints and God's judgment in response (typified by the persecution of the Apostolic Church under Nero and the events of AD 70 that followed).

Matthew 23-25 is a structural unit, which begins with the scribes and Pharisees on the judgment seat (of Moses) and ends with Christ on the throne at the last judgment.

In ch. 23-24 he basically says that the sin committed during the time leading up to the Messiah would come upon that generation. And he finishes in ch 25 by giving the eternal destiny of the righteous and the wicked.

The thing is that the judgment on the generation that rejected the Messiah is conflated with the final judgment that includes the generations to whom the gospel has been preached (see Mat 28:19). What we have is a situation a bit like the Old Testament prophets gave. When Nathan told David that David's son's kingdom would last forever, that was pointing not just to Solomon but to the future Messiah. When Isaiah told Ahaz that a virgin would have a son who would be called Immanuel, that was fulfilled both in (?) Isaiah's wife's son and in the Messiah.

Likewise, the prophecy of the destruction of the wicked in the generation that rejected the Messiah (Mat 23:35) points also to the final judgment at the end of the gospel age. The two are separated in Revelation, where we are shown the destruction of the great city (Babylon, symbolizing Jerusalem, Rev. 17-19), followed by the thousand years during which Satan cannot deceive the nations because the Church binds him with its preaching of the gospel of salvation (Rev 20). Then we are shown the last judgment. There is a double fulfillment.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2016, 11:36:31 PM by Spud »

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Repent the end is nigh
« Reply #84 on: October 27, 2016, 12:27:25 AM »
........followed by the thousand years during which Satan cannot deceive the nations because the Church binds him with its preaching of the gospel of salvation (Rev 20).
When did that happen? .....if it has....
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Spud

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Re: Repent the end is nigh
« Reply #85 on: October 27, 2016, 08:41:48 AM »
When did that happen? .....if it has....
I think we've discussed this before. The thousand years are a symbol representing the time between the Messiah and the final judgment.

Spud

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Re: Repent the end is nigh
« Reply #86 on: October 27, 2016, 08:47:13 AM »
In your opinion, with nothing to substantiate it. ::)
The cattle on a thousand hills substantiate it, flew.

Walter

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Re: Repent the end is nigh
« Reply #87 on: October 27, 2016, 09:07:19 AM »
I think we've discussed this before. The thousand years are a symbol representing the time between the Messiah and the final judgment.

You couldn't make it up could you?

Brownie

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Re: Repent the end is nigh
« Reply #88 on: October 27, 2016, 09:39:43 AM »

Explain that comment?

It's a bit like, "Pigs might fly", only substitute red heifers  ;).
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Repent the end is nigh
« Reply #89 on: October 27, 2016, 10:08:42 AM »
I think we've discussed this before. The thousand years are a symbol representing the time between the Messiah and the final judgment.
So, not actually 1000 years then?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Spud

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Re: Repent the end is nigh
« Reply #90 on: October 27, 2016, 07:44:55 PM »

Explain that comment?

For every beast of the forest is mine,
the cattle on a thousand hills.
Ps. 50:10

The idea is that God owns all the cattle. A thousand is the number used to indicate a great number of hills.

Anchorman

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Re: Repent the end is nigh
« Reply #91 on: October 28, 2016, 09:11:40 AM »
Nope. Just the owner of them all - and everything else, for that matter.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Repent the end is nigh
« Reply #92 on: October 28, 2016, 09:13:39 AM »
Nope. Just the owner of them all - and everything else, for that matter.
Is thst recorded in the sasine register?
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Anchorman

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Re: Repent the end is nigh
« Reply #93 on: October 28, 2016, 09:24:10 AM »
Nah. The Psalms, innit!
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Repent the end is nigh
« Reply #94 on: October 28, 2016, 09:43:23 AM »
Nah. The Psalms, innit!
Thst wont get you far in the Sheriff Court!
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

trippymonkey

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Re: Repent the end is nigh
« Reply #95 on: October 28, 2016, 03:45:51 PM »
If God 'owns' ALL then He needs to take a damn sight better care of them ?!?!!?!?  ;) ::)

Nick

Spud

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Re: Repent the end is nigh
« Reply #96 on: November 01, 2016, 01:37:11 PM »
A little thought (thank you Keil & Delitzsch commentary on the OT) about Matthew 26:63-65.

The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”

64“You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”e

65Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy.


I've often wondered why the high priest treats this as blasphemy, since Jesus in his answer to the high priest uses the title, "Son of Man" for himself, having been asked to tell them if he is the Son of God.

In Daniel 7:13, "one like a son of man" is seen coming with the clouds of heaven. Jesus is clearly referring to this passage in his statement. So because God is the only one of whom it is said that he makes the clouds his chariot (Psalm 104:3, cf. Isaiah 19:1), therefore Jesus is claiming equality with God, divine status. This explains why the high priest treats the statement as blasphemy. 

« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 01:40:44 PM by Spud »

Sassy

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Re: Repent the end is nigh
« Reply #97 on: November 04, 2016, 08:47:23 AM »
A little thought (thank you Keil & Delitzsch commentary on the OT) about Matthew 26:63-65.

The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”

64“You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”e

65 Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy.


I've often wondered why the high priest treats this as blasphemy, since Jesus in his answer to the high priest uses the title, "Son of Man" for himself, having been asked to tell them if he is the Son of God.

In Daniel 7:13, "one like a son of man" is seen coming with the clouds of heaven. Jesus is clearly referring to this passage in his statement. So because God is the only one of whom it is said that he makes the clouds his chariot (Psalm 104:3, cf. Isaiah 19:1), therefore Jesus is claiming equality with God, divine status. This explains why the high priest treats the statement as blasphemy.

So does this make Elisha God, too.


And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

You are desperate to do what the Apostles warned against.

It is in saying Jesus is the Son of God which made it blasphemy. Because as with being a Son of Abraham, to be a son of God you have to do as your father does. So true descendants of Abraham would have recognised who Christ was. Those who knew God would also have recognised who Christ was.
So Anna, Simeon and those who waited knowing and understanding what the Holy Spirit had told them recognised who Christ was. The annointed one from God.
As Christ pointed out, a son/descendant does the same as his Father.
It does not make them Abraham himself or God himself.



We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
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Spud

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Re: Repent the end is nigh
« Reply #98 on: November 07, 2016, 07:11:49 PM »
So does this make Elisha God, too.


And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

You are desperate to do what the Apostles warned against.

It is in saying Jesus is the Son of God which made it blasphemy. Because as with being a Son of Abraham, to be a son of God you have to do as your father does. So true descendants of Abraham would have recognised who Christ was. Those who knew God would also have recognised who Christ was.
So Anna, Simeon and those who waited knowing and understanding what the Holy Spirit had told them recognised who Christ was. The annointed one from God.
As Christ pointed out, a son/descendant does the same as his Father.
It does not make them Abraham himself or God himself.

To quote K/D on Daniel 7:13,
The superhuman or divine nature of the person seen in the form of a man lies in the coming with the clouds of heaven, since it is true only of God that He makes the clouds His chariot; Psalm 104:3, cf. Isaiah 19:1. But on the other hand, also, the words do not exclude the humanity...

But it's an interesting point you make about Elijah.

Alien

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Re: Repent the end is nigh
« Reply #99 on: November 09, 2016, 07:22:38 PM »
Most people assume it was to do with the second coming. However, we have no idea if what Jesus is quoted as saying was actually said by him at all. No one apparently was writing down what Jesus said when he was alive, and tape recorders hadn't been invented, so it would be hard for anyone to remember word for word exactly what was said. How many of us could quote accurately a conversation we had last week, let alone remember it years later.
So why do you think that refers to his second coming rather than the fall of Jerusalem (AD 70)? Please answer my question.

However, in response to your question:

1) They were not all as old as you, dear lady.  ;)
2) They believed, rightly or wrongly, that they were listening to the Messiah and would presumably have listened more closely than in most conversations.
3) Jesus often spoke in a structured way, for examples in parables which themselves had structures, often chiasms where stuff is put in a particular manner to highlight the main point (not at this particular point though).
4) Most people could not write, yet disciples of rabbis were taught to learn things off by heart.
5) Some people, though relatively few, could write and it is possible that one or more wrote down the substance of what Jesus said. It is often trotted out that very few people could read, but this is demonstrably false as reading "Reading and writing in the Time of Jesus" by Alan Milard of Liverpool University would show you (if you have £25 to spend).

Over to you, please, to answer the question I put to you.
Apparently 99.9975% atheist because I believe in one out of 4000 believed in (an atheist on Facebook). Yes, check the maths as well.