Patriotism

[Aruntraveller]

Elsewhere on this forum I have been accused of not being very patriotic.

I find this kind of annoying because the accusation was made that I do not want the best for the country. This is based on the fact that I hold a different viewpoint to the poster in question.

Obviously this is risible as I could on the same grounds make the same accusation against my accuser.

Most of us will be familiar with Johnson's 'Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel' on looking at this further I came across the following thoughts:

"What he's calling attention to is that scoundrels, when challenged, will often use false patriotism in order to shut up their opponents. It's a form of Ad. Hom."

This implies that different forms of patriotism exist.

What do other posters think patriotism is, or what it should be?

Or should it exist at all?

[BashfulAnthony]

Elsewhere on this forum I have been accused of not being very patriotic.

I find this kind of annoying because the accusation was made that I do not want the best for the country. This is based on the fact that I hold a different viewpoint to the poster in question.

Obviously this is risible as I could on the same grounds make the same accusation against my accuser.

Most of us will be familiar with Johnson's 'Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel' on looking at this further I came across the following thoughts:

"What he's calling attention to is that scoundrels, when challenged, will often use false patriotism in order to shut up their opponents. It's a form of Ad. Hom."

This implies that different forms of patriotism exist.

What do other posters think patriotism is, or what it should be?

Or should it exist at all?

Patriotism is the, "vigorous support of one's country."  You are not doing that over Brexit; far from it.  So you are not being patriotic, but you are being hypocritical!

[Aruntraveller]

And again proving my point.

[Aruntraveller]

So if the country had a referendum on bringing back capital punishment and the hangers won - would I then have to just shut up and accept it, even though morally I think it is a totally unacceptable position?

If they brought back laws to bang up gay people - I have to accept that to?

Where do you draw the line at proscribing an individuals freedom to object?

[Nearly Sane]

Not a big fan of patriotism, never understood why an accident of birth should elicit feelings of pride. Nation states seem unavoidable as a concept, and we should aim to participate in them seeking for the best for our country in the context of looking at mutual interests with other states.


While you might feel that there is an attempt to shut down discourse by using the appeal to patriotism, I would suggest much the same is done on this subject by people accusing others of being Little Englanders or racists. The idea that the 17 million who voted Brexit are all somehow worthy of those tags is ludicrous. Just as the idea that what they meant by that vote, and what vision they have of the future is the same is also ludicrous.

[Nearly Sane]

Patriotism is the, "vigorous support of one's country."  You are not doing that over Brexit; far from it.  So you are not being patriotic, but you are being hypocritical!

if Trent thinks Brexit is bad for the country then it is not hypocritical for him to say that.

[BashfulAnthony]

So if the country had a referendum on bringing back capital punishment and the hangers won - would I then have to just shut up and accept it, even though morally I think it is a totally unacceptable position?

If they brought back laws to bang up deviants - I have to accept that to?

Where do you draw the line at proscribing an individuals freedom to object?

You can continue to complain, but you cannot, realistically, expect a Referendum weeks after the first.  There is a distinction here between moral objections, such as capital punishment, based on conscience, and political objections which most accept are part and parcel of a democratic regime.  We have General Elections to decide such matters.

[wigginhall]

It's a cheap shot to accuse someone of being unpatriotic.   I would tend to pull out of a discussion, where that happened; it's pretty much an ad hom. 

It's also meaningless.   There are bits of the UK that I like, and bits that I don't like, e.g. the monarchy.   So what?

[Aruntraveller]

We have General Elections to decide such matters.

Exactly.

[wigginhall]

Actually, calling someone unpatriotic strikes me as nasty.   That is another reason I would stop - pretty much a WUM tactic. 

[floo]

Elsewhere on this forum I have been accused of not being very patriotic.

I find this kind of annoying because the accusation was made that I do not want the best for the country. This is based on the fact that I hold a different viewpoint to the poster in question.

Obviously this is risible as I could on the same grounds make the same accusation against my accuser.

Most of us will be familiar with Johnson's 'Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel' on looking at this further I came across the following thoughts:

"What he's calling attention to is that scoundrels, when challenged, will often use false patriotism in order to shut up their opponents. It's a form of Ad. Hom."

This implies that different forms of patriotism exist.

What do other posters think patriotism is, or what it should be?

Or should it exist at all?

I don't believe in being patriotic, or flag waving for the sake of it, in the sense of my country right or wrong.  Whilst I wouldn't wish to live anywhere else, I more than willing to highlight things that are wrong with the place.

[Aruntraveller]

I would suggest much the same is done on this subject by people accusing others of being Little Englanders or racists. The idea that the 17 million who voted Brexit are all somehow worthy of those tags is ludicrous.

Well I've never made that argument. Even so we have to accept that those subsets of thought are within the Leave contingent and guard against their ideas gaining traction.

[floo]

Well I've never made that argument. Even so we have to accept that those subsets of thought are within the Leave contingent and guard against their ideas gaining traction.

Agreed.

[BashfulAnthony]

if Trent thinks Brexit is bad for the country then it is not hypocritical for him to say that.

Brexit is a fact, like it or not, and now is the time for all to stand together and make the best of it.  It is unpatriotic to play down your country and continually make these doom-laden and totally unsubstantiated "predictions" of the worst!

[Aruntraveller]

Brexit is a fact, like it or not, and now is the time for all to stand together and make the best of it.  It is unpatriotic to play down your country and continually make these doom-laden and totally unsubstantiated "predictions" of the worst!

It is unpatriotic not to face the obstacles that lie ahead and bury your head in the sand saying "It'll be alright on the night".

As I said we could go down that road forever. The accusation of being unpatriotic is false and should not be used.

Stand together with who exactly?

David Davies? Boris? (Other numpties are available).

Good grief man have you abandoned all your critical thinking?

[BashfulAnthony]

Actually, calling someone unpatriotic strikes me as nasty.   That is another reason I would stop - pretty much a WUM tactic.

Why nasty? Facts are facts.  It's nothing to do with WUM tactics:  that's just a silly get-out.

[Aruntraveller]

that's just a silly get-out.

As are claims of people being unpatriotic.

[Nearly Sane]

Well I've never made that argument. Even so we have to accept that those subsets of thought are within the Leave contingent and guard against their ideas gaining traction.

not saying you have, but it has been made on here on occasion. There is a tendency on single issues to caricterise the other side by their worst sections.

[Brownie]

I too am no great fan of patriotism;  it's OK and natural to feel bouyed up by things that happen by your countrymen or in your country (2012 Olympics a good example), but no more than that.

As has been mentioned on at least two occasions, Putin is admired by the new UKIP leader for his 'patriotism'.  Says it all really.

[BashfulAnthony]

It is unpatriotic not to face the obstacles that lie ahead and bury your head in the sand saying "It'll be alright on the night".

As I said we could go down that road forever. The accusation of being unpatriotic is false and should not be used.

Stand together with who exactly?

David Davies? Boris? (Other numpties are available).

Good grief man have you abandoned all your critical thinking?

We are facing problems that need to be solved, and on that account we're ALL on the same side, Johnson Davies, me, you.  I say that if you are only prepared to criticise, when we ought to be pulling together, then you are not being patriotic.   Stand by your country in its efforts and stop being so NEGATIVE!

[Nearly Sane]

Why nasty? Facts are facts.  It's nothing to do with WUM tactics:  that's just a silly get-out.

Calling someone unpatriotic opinion, not facts 

[Nearly Sane]

We are facing problems that need to be solved, and on that account we're ALL on the same side, Johnson Davies, me, you.  I say that if you are only prepared to criticise, when we ought to be pulling together, then you are not being patriotic.   Stand by your country in its efforts and stop being so NEGATIVE!

no, that's nonsense. Obviously we are not all on the same side as the referendum made clear.

[BashfulAnthony]

I too am no great fan of patriotism;  it's OK and natural to feel bouyed up by things that happen by your countrymen or in your country (2012 Olympics a good example), but no more than that.

As has been mentioned on at least two occasions, Putin is admired by the new UKIP leader for his 'patriotism'.  Says it all really.

It doesn't say it all, Brownie.  There is no country more keen on patriotism than the US, and they are diametrically opposed to Putin' and his views.  Most people are patriotic towards their country:  it's a natural inclination and doesn't have to have sinister implications.

[wigginhall]

We are facing problems that need to be solved, and on that account we're ALL on the same side, Johnson Davies, me, you.  I say that if you are only prepared to criticise, when we ought to be pulling together, then you are not being patriotic.   Stand by your country in its efforts and stop being so NEGATIVE!

Well, calling someone unpatriotic is very negative.   I don't remember any posts where that happened, but it's a kind of poison in the middle of a discussion.     It's also farcical, and unthinking.

[BashfulAnthony]

no, that's nonsense. Obviously we are not all on the same side as the referendum made clear.

It is not nonsense! The Referendum is OVER!!  We are now batting on the same side, or should be, ie, for the best interests of UK!