Patriotism

[Gonnagle]

Dear Bashers,

You don't own a mobile!! man!! how I envy you.

Gonnagle.

[BashfulAnthony]

Dear Bashers,

You don't own a mobile!! man!! how I envy you.

Gonnagle.

I had a mobile when I retired, 12 years ago, and strictly speaking, I actually still have it, I think,  somewhere, but it didn't work.  I have managed very well without it!

[Maeght]

Dear Maeght,

Weeelll!! It's all to do with Brexit, right!! right Brexit is a Tory fiasco, right!! right Bashers wants us all to stop whinging and get behind Brexit, right!! right so I am unpatriotic in not getting behind the Tory fiasco, right!! right I blame the Tories for all our ills, even me stubbing my toe stepping out of the shower, right!! right

No, patriotism is about the country not a politiacl aprty or single issue. Sorry to hear about your toe though.

[Brownie]

Anyway to haul us back to patriotism Anthony stated that it is:

So if Anthony's country is engaged in genocide, or the persecution of Christians I have to assume he is ok with that.

My country right or wrong and all that.

I think that is a reasonable post given the direction of the thread.  I had actually thought of similar but not in those words!  I imagined the UK going to war, perhaps being persuaded into it, with no hope of winning and for very doubtful reasons (as if...), the troops and the general public being whipped into a patriotic fervor about "fighting for our country", regardless of the rights and wrongs.

However I don't think you had any intention of being insulting, the word 'patriotism' has all sorts of connotations and doesn't necessarily mean nationalistic.  Neither is an unpatriotic person someone who does not care for the country they were born and/or grew up in.

Well done to you not having a mobile!  I cannot imagine being without one though I suppose I managed OK twenty years ago as we all did - but it is so handy.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Maeght,

No, patriotism is about the country not a politiacl aprty or single issue. Sorry to hear about your toe though.

But! But!! isn't Bashers beating Trent about the head regarding his patriotism for not getting behind Brexit, which is!! and just because I like saying it, a Tory fiasco

Gonnagle.

PS: And also so very true

[Brownie]

This is what Bashful said at the beginning of the thread: Patriotism is the, "vigorous support of one's country."  You are not doing that over Brexit; far from it.  So you are not being patriotic, but you are being hypocritical!


so he was making a connection between Brexit and patriotism.  Indeed many Brexit-ers do bang on in a type of patriotic way, "Our country", "Our people", etc ( or "These foreigners", "Those foreigners" or even "Them foreigners").

Still I feel I've bashed the Bashful a bit of late, which wasn't intended at the start, so won't say any more about him.
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Agree with you Gonnagle though it does appear that voters from all political persuasions voted Leave.

[Maeght]

Dear Maeght,

But! But!! isn't Bashers beating Trent about the head regarding his patriotism for not getting behind Brexit, which is!! and just because I like saying it, a Tory fiasco

Gonnagle.

PS: And also so very true

He is, but the point people are making of course is that that isn't a question of patriotism. Do carry on with saying Tory fiasco - I like the sound of that!

[BashfulAnthony]

This is what Bashful said at the beginning of the thread: Patriotism is the, "vigorous support of one's country."  You are not doing that over Brexit; far from it.  So you are not being patriotic, but you are being hypocritical!


so he was making a connection between Brexit and patriotism.  Indeed many Brexit-ers do bang on in a type of patriotic way, "Our country", "Our people", etc ( or "These foreigners", "Those foreigners" or even "Them foreigners").

Still I feel I've bashed the Bashful a bit of late, which wasn't intended at the start, so won't say any more about him.
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Agree with you Gonnagle though it does appear that voters from all political persuasions voted Leave.

Just to be quite clear, and finally;  I said, and  believe, that now Brexit is a done thing we should stand by our country and support the negotiators in their efforts, and that would be the patriotic thing to do.  Surely, whatever their persuasion, everyone wants to see the best to suit us all, and that is being patriotic towards our fellows citizens.  End of!

[Gonnagle]

Dear Bashers, ( how are you old son )

But! But!! We are not seeing any negotiating, why? the ones doing the negotiating do not have a clue, the Tories ( the ones who created this fiasco ) are in a whole new world, nobody! I mean nobody thought this would happen, not the Leavers or the Remainers, no plan of action.

The Tory guy in charge of this Tory fiasco, David somebody, I read somewhere that he wanted a meeting with all the top company executives, they all told him to go and get fracked, he also sent them all a wee leaflet to fill in, it was scrunched up and thrown in the bin.

We don't know Bashers old son what we have to get behind, according to Jack Knave ( our resident Brexit man ) the Tories are negotiating with something which is on its last legs.

What is it they are actually negotiating? As far as I can tell it's all about keeping Johnny Foreigner out of this country, can we do this, I don't think so but maybe there is a masterplan.

Gonnagle.

[Gordon]

Just to be quite clear, and finally;  I said, and  believe, that now Brexit is a done thing we should stand by our country and support the negotiators in their efforts, and that would be the patriotic thing to do.  Surely, whatever their persuasion, everyone wants to see the best to suit us all, and that is being patriotic towards our fellows citizens.  End of!

Depends on what 'best' is: as it stands I think the 'best' thing is for Scotland to get out of the UK.

It is impossible to feel patriotic about a UK that doesn't represent the views of Scotland on this critical matter, that we were misled about in 2014, and now seems hell-bent on pursuing an irreversible policy that has no planning to speak of.

[BashfulAnthony]

Dear Bashers, ( how are you old son )

But! But!! We are not seeing any negotiating, why? the ones doing the negotiating do not have a clue, the Tories ( the ones who created this fiasco ) are in a whole new world, nobody! I mean nobody thought this would happen, not the Leavers or the Remainers, no plan of action.

The Tory guy in charge of this Tory fiasco, David somebody, I read somewhere that he wanted a meeting with all the top company executives, they all told him to go and get fracked, he also sent them all a wee leaflet to fill in, it was scrunched up and thrown in the bin.

We don't know Bashers old son what we have to get behind, according to Jack Knave ( our resident Brexit man ) the Tories are negotiating with something which is on its last legs.

What is it they are actually negotiating? As far as I can tell it's all about keeping Johnny Foreigner out of this country, can we do this, I don't think so but maybe there is a masterplan.

Gonnagle.

Hi, Gonners old son.  Good to see you as chirpy as ever.

I am no Tory, and yes there was no plan. But that was 100% due to the arrogant/Osborne partnership.  In their incompetent self-assurance they thought It was all tied up, especially as they had conducted an unfair, in fact, undemocratic, campaign  We now have Theresa May and particularly David Davies to put a plan together.  Those who argue it should have been done earlier, do not properly appreciate Cameron's hold on his Cabinet.  He forbade Brexit ministers to campaign until Purdah set in;  they were not allowed to use Civil Service or Treasury resources for research or help in speech-making,  for the whole campaign;  they were not granted any public money, and had to rely on donations, whilst the Remainers were allocated ｣9million of tax-payer's money!  This was disgraceful, and undemocratic. So, how was any non-Remainer expected to build a plan?  We have to hope they are making up lost time.  But to expect regular up-dates is silly: you don't give out your negotiating position until you are ready.

[BashfulAnthony]

Depends on what 'best' is: as it stands I think the 'best' thing is for Scotland to get out of the UK.

It is impossible to feel patriotic about a UK that doesn't represent the views of Scotland on this critical matter, that we were misled about in 2014, and now seems hell-bent on pursuing an irreversible policy that has no planning to speak of.

Seems all these Referendum losers just keep on whingeing.  We are not France, Ireland or Denmark who can be bullied into having a Referendum over-turned till it suits the Government, or the losers.

[ProfessorDavey]

He forbade Brexit ministers to campaign until Purdah set in;

Quite rightly as the Government's official position was to support remaining - hence a Government minister must follow that line under collective responsibility or else resign from government to permit him or her to campaign to leave. This is standard practice and applies to all other official government positions under collective responsibility.

they were not allowed to use Civil Service or Treasury resources for research or help in speech-making,  for the whole campaign;

Again quite rightly - the civil service and treasury are there to support the Government in the delivery of its policies, and the Government policy was to hold a referendum (and of course both the Civil Service and Treasury supported the delivery of that policy, i.e. a referendum). Secondly Government policy was to remain in the EU and therefore it would be completely unreasonable for the Civil Service to use its resources in support of a policy diametrically opposed to the government.

they were not granted any public money, and had to rely on donations, whilst the Remainers were allocated ｣9million of tax-payer's money!  This was disgraceful, and undemocratic.

Wrong again - it is standard practice and completely constitutional. When a government calls a referendum it is allowed to inform the electorate of the official government position on that referendum using public money. It is then up to both sides to make the case outside of government (i.e. in purdah) using their own resources. This is what has happened in every referendum - why should it have been different for this one. Sounds like special pleading to me.

[Maeght]

There is a Brexit thread isn't there?

[BashfulAnthony]

Quite rightly as the Government's official position was to support remaining - hence a Government minister must follow that line under collective responsibility or else resign from government to permit him or her to campaign to leave. This is standard practice and applies to all other official government positions under collective responsibility.
Again quite rightly - the civil service and treasury are there to support the Government in the delivery of its policies, and the Government policy was to hold a referendum (and of course both the Civil Service and Treasury supported the delivery of that policy, i.e. a referendum). Secondly Government policy was to remain in the EU and therefore it would be completely unreasonable for the Civil Service to use its resources in support of a policy diametrically opposed to the government.
Wrong again - it is standard practice and completely constitutional. When a government calls a referendum it is allowed to inform the electorate of the official government position on that referendum using public money. It is then up to both sides to make the case outside of government (i.e. in purdah) using their own resources. This is what has happened in every referendum - why should it have been different for this one. Sounds like special pleading to me.

All very well;  but when the incumbent Government use its resources to produce at best  dubious data, then it becomes a serious mis-use of power.  We were told there was a security risk, yet that is a NATO matter;  we were told an emergency budget was essential.  That was not true.  We had reports from the Treasury predicting  a ｣4,000 loss to each families'  annual income  in the years ahead, and all that on spurious data.  We had other silly predictions, so that Joseph Stiglitz, Nobel Prize winner in economics, was constrained to say they were "not worth the paper they were written on."  Under such dubious circumstances, and in the face of such predictions, it would have been fair and democratic to allow Brexiteers the means of proper reply.  After all, this was a change in the offing which will affect us all for a very long time to come.. It's just happy that the majority saw through all that dubious behaviour.

[Gordon]

Seems all these Referendum losers just keep on whingeing.  We are not France, Ireland or Denmark who can be bullied into having a Referendum over-turned till it suits the Government, or the losers.

In my case, given the idiocy foisted upon us by the UK, then the 'we' that concerns me is Scotland.

[BashfulAnthony]

In my case, given the idiocy foisted upon us by the UK, then the 'we' that concerns me is Scotland.

Sorry, Gordon.  Scotland is part of the UK;  so it's we," and likely to remain so.

[Gordon]

Sorry, Gordon.  Scotland is part of the UK;  so it's we," and likely to remain so.

Sadly that is the case currently - hopefully that will change in due course.

[BashfulAnthony]

Sadly that is the case currently - hopefully that will change in due course.

I'm afraid it's a "don't hold your breath" scenario.

[Nearly Sane]

I'm afraid it's a "don't hold your breath" scenario.

Brexit is pretty much the sole reason it's much of a possibility just now.

[ProfessorDavey]

All very well;  but when the incumbent Government use its resources to produce at best  dubious data

Don't make me laugh - the masters of the dodgy data were without doubt the brexiters - ｣350million extra a week for the NHS - remember that, remember it was on the side of their campaign bus. Remember that the Office for National Statistics effectively told them they were lying but they carried on telling that lie, day after day after day.

[ProfessorDavey]

we were told an emergency budget was essential.

Really - so you know exactly what is going to be in the Chancellor's Autumn statement do you - astonishing. There are, of course, strong indications that he is going to have to pump significant additional money into the economy to head off a brexit-vote derived slowing of economic growth. And within weeks of the vote (and pretty well at the first opportunity) the Bank of England halved its base interest rate and brought in a raft of other measures aimed at stimulating the economy to prevent or reduce a brexit-vote driven slump.

Haven't you been paying attention BA.

[BashfulAnthony]

Don't make me laugh - the masters of the dodgy data were without doubt the brexiters - ｣350million extra a week for the NHS - remember that, remember it was on the side of their campaign bus. Remember that the Office for National Statistics effectively told them they were lying but they carried on telling that lie, day after day after day.

So, you trade one alleged lie for a whole gamut by the Government, for goodness' sake.  Cameron/Osborne spewed out their lies from the word go, right up to the wire.  Their lying and deceitfulness were a disgrace for an elected Government we had every right to trust to tell us the truth.   They were told they were lying, and went on doing so, over and over.  And then, at the end, Cameron broke his word, again, about staying to see it through for the British people, and the "country I love."  I suppose he's now somewhere planning how he will feather his nest even further!

[ProfessorDavey]

So, you trade one alleged lie for a whole gamut by the Government, for goodness' sake.

Nope - there were lies after lies from the Brexit side - most notably the notion that we can be full members of the single market and also restrict freedom of movement. Plus all the lies about the net contributions to the EU, plus any number of mis-truths on the EU itself, often involving blaming the EU for issues that were squarely in the power of the Westminster Government. Plus add in a sprinkle of Turkey joining within a year and the whole campaign was effectively lie after lie.

Cameron/Osborne spewed out their lies from the word go, right up to the wire.  Their lying and deceitfulness were a disgrace for an elected Government we had every right to trust to tell us the truth.

Nope they used data from highly respected independent economic organisations. And indeed their predictions have not been proven wrong, and indeed much of what they suggested has in fact happened.

And then, at the end, Cameron broke his word, again, about staying to see it through for the British people, and the "country I love."  I suppose he's now somewhere planning how he will feather his nest even further!

I will agree with you there, but that was largely political. Effectively Cameron couldn't say he would go as it would then become a referendum on him and his government, rather than on the EU. But anyone with any intelligence recognised that his position would be completely untenable if he lost the referendum. He was always going to go if he lost.

[Brownie]

There is a Brexit thread isn't there?

Yes, a few;  on page 3 of this forum and in the Politics forum.