Islamophobia

[Sassy]

The article was pointing out that the term can also be applied to Muslims being beastly to other kinds of Muslims too.

In fact it seems to me that the majority of beastliness to Muslims throughout the world is being done by other kinds of Muslims... Rather than by non believers as Muslims would claim.

Did we miss something? SOME Muslims can be horrible to everyone it is their beliefs.
They murder their daughters/sisters.wives and even send them to be human bombs and on suicide missions. It is all in the news.

[Brownie]

The fanatics murder their daughters/sisters/wives and aren't too fussed if they kill themselves either, we know that.

Of course there is Muslim on Muslim conflict, no-one doubts that, just as there has always been Christian on Christian conflict, including violence in the past.

it's very nasty indeed and should not be airbrushed, after a while everyone loses sight of their original objectives and are just caught up in hatred.

There's no need for any of it and those who have an attitude committed to peace and reconciliation have to constantly strive towards that but it's a long job.  When our current problems have diminished, no doubt another one, concerning quite different groups of people, will pop up.

[trippymonkey]

Moderator long url replaced with tiny one
http://tinyurl.com/jyyg5hw




Is anyone else here aware of what this Facebook group is saying???
Giving quotes too.
OOOOHHH Sorry I forgot - these kinds of attitudes & actions are all depend on circumstances & are not to relied on at ALL times !!! If so then how does this go with some Muslims saying ALL the Quran is viable for ALL time.?

Nick

[Brownie]

Some Christians say their interpretation of the Bible is valid for all times.  Depends on the interpretation, that's my opinion anyway.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Moderator long url replaced with tiny one
http://tinyurl.com/jyyg5hw




Is anyone else here aware of what this Facebook group is saying???
Giving quotes too.
OOOOHHH Sorry I forgot - these kinds of attitudes & actions are all depend on circumstances & are not to relied on at ALL times !!! If so then how does this go with some Muslims saying ALL the Quran is viable for ALL time.?

Nick

Which particular quotes are you referring to Nick? If the quotes are from the Quran, you might want to check who translated them from the Arabic. You didn't post any quotes or names of translators in the Facebook group so it is impossible to gauge if whatever translations you are worried about have a wide following among Muslims or are followed by a minority of Muslims with extreme views or if the translations are made up by non-Muslims.

What attitudes and actions are you worried about? Does the Facebook group identify any specific Muslims with the attitudes and actions that worry you? Or are you just guessing how widespread the attitudes and actions that worry you are? In which case your guess or belief is only true for you and for anyone who holds similar beliefs to you.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

The article had a particular point to make and had nothing, as far as I could see, about people condemning anything. It was more targeted at the "Islamophobia" industry hypocrites.

Yes but who are the Islamophobia industry hypocrites? Who does Douglas Murray specifically want to hear grand-standing" about the murder and how does he know that this person has not "grand-standed" and what is his definition of "grand-standing"?

Murray said "Incidents of ‘Islamophobia’ are really getting out of hand in Britain. In fact there has been such a wave of attacks that it’s amazing that politicians and commentators across the political spectrum, (not to mention all those supposed ‘anti-fascist’ groups) aren’t grand-standing like crazy."

[Brownie]

If you don't mind me saying, Trippy, you seem to have a fixation for/with Islam.  I wonder whom you fixated on before such things as ISIS and 'radicalisation', etc (unless you were a child then), and what you will do in a few years when all this has passed, as it surely will?
I'm not being horrible, just wondering. 

[trippymonkey]

G
Did you actually look at what this group has said? Please do & see if any 'mis'translation of The Quran or The Prophet's Sayings are incorrect.

Brownie. No all this is just recent but, NO fixation, btw, I've been studying Islamic thought down the ages for a long time & have never read anything that could possibly sway me to consider Islam is The Best Way in any walk of life. And, yes, this attitude is one that Islam boasts of. Please do read as it's a fascinating book & will give you an insight into the ridiculous mentality of IS-ISIS.

Nick

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Sorry Nick - I just about have time to read stuff posted by people on this forum and some of the articles linked to on here. I don't have time to read stuff posted by the public on a Facebook group about their beliefs about Islam.

It's probably the usual stuff you have copied and pasted before without checking who the translators are or without presenting any evidence as to how widespread the beliefs or interpretations are.

You could try contributing to discussions on here by posting an actual argument in your own words rather than copy, pastes or links to Facebook. If you can manage that without using the upper case or infantile, random, repetitive punctuation that would be great and it might actually be possible to take your posts seriously.

[Bubbles]

Gabriella

Something I come across now and again is that if there are two verses in the Quran on the same subject the later one is the only relevant one.

In this way a few Muslims seem to be pushing some of the more violent and oppressive hadiths.

Does this veiw have any roots in more commonplace interpretations?

It's one that Anjem Choudary seems to use a lot. Where did he get that from?

Is there something in Islam which gives later verses more importance?

Or is it nonsense?

[Bubbles]

Moderator long url replaced with tiny one
http://tinyurl.com/jyyg5hw




Is anyone else here aware of what this Facebook group is saying???
Giving quotes too.
OOOOHHH Sorry I forgot - these kinds of attitudes & actions are all depend on circumstances & are not to relied on at ALL times !!! If so then how does this go with some Muslims saying ALL the Quran is viable for ALL time.?

Nick

They are just picking a lot of random verses and putting their own spin on it.

These sort of Facebook groups are common. Usually American and anti Muslim.

Try Muslims against Isis or one of the other groups.

https://www.facebook.com/Muslims-Against-ISIS-1444672609121662/

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/more-than-30000-ahmadiyya-muslims-from-across-the-world-meet-in-the-uk-to-reject-isis-and-islamic-a7191306.html

[trippymonkey]

Rose THANKS for that.
I DID feel it was rather a strong view but when you have ANY type of written verses, it can be so easy to take out of context & whatever !!!
Religions have been doing it for millennia !?!?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Gabriella

Something I come across now and again is that if there are two verses in the Quran on the same subject the later one is the only relevant one.

In this way a few Muslims seem to be pushing some of the more violent and oppressive hadiths.

Does this veiw have any roots in more commonplace interpretations?

It's one that Anjem Choudary seems to use a lot. Where did he get that from?

Is there something in Islam which gives later verses more importance?

Or is it nonsense?

The Quran mentions in a couple of places that if a verse of the Quran is replaced, it will be replaced by a better verse. This is called abrogation, which i assume is what you are referring to when you say later verses replace earlier ones. There are different opinions amongst Muslim scholars as to which verses have been abrogated and whether verses in the Quran can be abrogated by Hadith or whether they can only be abrogated by other Quranic verses.

Some Muslims think the verses telling the Muslims to fight a war with the tribes of Mecca until they are subdued still applies today and abrogates the verse that states there is no compulsion in religion.

Some Muslims use these verses about a war against the tribes of Mecca to say that any group of Muslims today can take it upon themselves to start wars and that it is their duty to establish an Islamic State by force if necessary. Muslims who adopt this position usually identify with Muslim majority countries that have been invaded or where certain key resources are economically controlled by foreign powers and where there is corrupt leadership, brutal regimes, poverty, lots of unemployment amongst young men.

This position is disputed by other Muslims who think that the verse " there is no compulsion in religion" has not been abrogated and that the verses about war should be read in their historical context rather than applied to all non-Muslims today.

[Bubbles]

The Quran mentions in a couple of places that if a verse of the Quran is replaced, it will be replaced by a better verse. This is called abrogation, which i assume is what you are referring to when you say later verses replace earlier ones. There are different opinions amongst Muslim scholars as to which verses have been abrogated and whether verses in the Quran can be abrogated by Hadith or whether they can only be abrogated by other Quranic verses.

Some Muslims think the verses telling the Muslims to fight a war with the tribes of Mecca until they are subdued still applies today and abrogates the verse that states there is no compulsion in religion.

Some Muslims use these verses about a war against the tribes of Mecca to say that any group of Muslims today can take it upon themselves to start wars and that it is their duty to establish an Islamic State by force if necessary. Muslims who adopt this position usually identify with Muslim majority countries that have been invaded or where certain key resources are economically controlled by foreign powers and where there is corrupt leadership, brutal regimes, poverty, lots of unemployment amongst young men.

This position is disputed by other Muslims who think that the verse " there is no compulsion in religion" has not been abrogated and that the verses about war should be read in their historical context rather than applied to all non-Muslims today.

Ok thanks 

That makes it clearer.

[trippymonkey]

Clearer ?
It makes it perfectly clear just what's going on here !!! Very often verses were 'conveniently' sent down to justify certain, shall we say, actions deemed necessary in certain acts committed by Muslims !!! For gains obviously !

''There are different opinions amongst Muslim scholars as to which verses have been abrogated and whether verses in the Quran can be abrogated by Hadith or whether they can only be abrogated by other Quranic verses.''

MMM We can only imagine which they decided were 'appropriate' eh?

Oh and as we're going on about certain behaviours 'allowed' in-by The Quran, just what is the Islamic legal age for a girl to be given 'completely' over to a man old enough to be her grandfather, never mind husband ?!?!!?!?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

When you say "which they decided were appropriate" - who is "they"?

That's the point -  scholars are in dispute about which verses have been abrogated.  So different scholars and different Muslims have different opinions. Most of them think the later verses about not drinking alcohol at all abrogate earlier verses about not being intoxicated when you pray but there is no similar commonly held view about the verses about fighting abrogating the "no compulsion in religion" verse.

Presumably people who like to fight or want to raise an army against superior technological fire power will whip up anger and violence by pointing to dead civilians - collateral damage- or oppressive, corrupt governments, and throw out stories of battles and empires of the past and verses about battle to motivate their followers to lay down their lives for a leader or "cause". Bit like all the stirring speeches about patriotism before missiles are launched and civilian lives shattered.

People who think there are better ways to solve a problem and who like stories about Prophet Mohamed as kind and compassionate will want to follow verses about tolerance and restraint.

Why don't you enlighten me by posting the chapter and verse in the Quran about the legal age? That way we can discuss it - I am not a mind reader.

[JP]

They are just picking a lot of random verses and putting their own spin on it.

These sort of Facebook groups are common. Usually American and anti Muslim.

Try Muslims against Isis or one of the other groups.

https://www.facebook.com/Muslims-Against-ISIS-1444672609121662/

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/more-than-30000-ahmadiyya-muslims-from-across-the-world-meet-in-the-uk-to-reject-isis-and-islamic-a7191306.html

Your link above which mentions ahmadiyya Muslims.....

You do realise a great many Muslims do not consider ahmadiyya Muslims to be Muslims and this is what the Glasgow murder was all about. Read my earlier post about how they are treated in Pakistan. This has been imported here into the UK.

[trippymonkey]

OH DEAR ?!!?
Are we going through that OLD thing about 'find me verses' etc & pleading ignorance !?!?
You know damn well what I'm on about so don't play games.

If you don't consider the Sunnah-Hadith reliable fact then never mention or quote from it.

Here's a start.....

https://uk.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?hspart=ddc&hsimp=yhs-ddc_bd&p=Age%20of%20consent%20in%20Islam&type=bl-bcr-6YC2S__alt__ddc_dss_bd_com

http://pickeringpost.com/story/the-islamic-age-of-consent/2746

http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2009/10/muslim-apologist-declares-there-is-no.html

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/marriage_age.html

http://inthenameofallah.org/Silence%20is%20Consent.html

Many more too. How can we consider the answer such as, Oh that was THOSE times when Muslims say Islam is for ALL people for ALL time. NO abrogation !!!

Nick

[Bubbles]

Your link above which mentions ahmadiyya Muslims.....

You do realise a great many Muslims do not consider ahmadiyya Muslims to be Muslims and this is what the Glasgow murder was all about. Read my earlier post about how they are treated in Pakistan. This has been imported here into the UK.

I've met some ahmadiyya Muslims and they created a good impression with me, I do realise they are not recognised by other groups of Muslims.

It's a bit like how Jehovah's Witnesses are regarded by mainstream Christianity, they don't get acknowledged as Christians either ( come to that some Christians don't think Catholics are Christian either, even if the Protestant movement came out of them )

I guess many religions don't acknowledge other groups, that people for you 

[Bubbles]

OH DEAR ?!!?
Are we going through that OLD thing about 'find me verses' etc & pleading ignorance !?!?
You know damn well what I'm on about so don't play games.

If you don't consider the Sunnah-Hadith reliable fact then never mention or quote from it.

Here's a start.....

https://uk.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?hspart=ddc&hsimp=yhs-ddc_bd&p=Age%20of%20consent%20in%20Islam&type=bl-bcr-6YC2S__alt__ddc_dss_bd_com

http://pickeringpost.com/story/the-islamic-age-of-consent/2746

http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2009/10/muslim-apologist-declares-there-is-no.html

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/marriage_age.html

http://inthenameofallah.org/Silence%20is%20Consent.html

Many more too. How can we consider the answer such as, Oh that was THOSE times when Muslims say Islam is for ALL people for ALL time. NO abrogation !!!

Nick

I think sometimes different verses are taken over others because they are considered more relevant in individual circumstances.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

OH DEAR ?!!?
Are we going through that OLD thing about 'find me verses' etc & pleading ignorance !?!?
You know damn well what I'm on about so don't play games.

If you don't consider the Sunnah-Hadith reliable fact then never mention or quote from it.

Here's a start.....

https://uk.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?hspart=ddc&hsimp=yhs-ddc_bd&p=Age%20of%20consent%20in%20Islam&type=bl-bcr-6YC2S__alt__ddc_dss_bd_com

http://pickeringpost.com/story/the-islamic-age-of-consent/2746

http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2009/10/muslim-apologist-declares-there-is-no.html

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/marriage_age.html

http://inthenameofallah.org/Silence%20is%20Consent.html

Many more too. How can we consider the answer such as, Oh that was THOSE times when Muslims say Islam is for ALL people for ALL time. NO abrogation !!!

Nick

Nick - you do relalise that accusing other people of playing games is a very poor way to try to cover up your ignorance and your inability to make a credible point. You asked me what the Quran said? Why did you specifically ask what the Quran said if the Quran actually has nothing to say on the topic?

All you end up doing is revealing your dishonesty when it comes to your claims of having in-depth knowledge about the religion.

Being precise is debating honestly - whereas what you do is make some vague comment or make stuff up and throw in the word "Quran" or "Sunnah" and link to websites hoping that your lack of knowledge and inability to construct an argument won't be exposed. 

Which Hadith (report about what Prophet Mohamed said or did) am I supposed to consider reliable fact? The ones passed down through oral tradition by various people from the 7th century and compiled a couple of centuries after Prophet Mohammed died? Should I also consider as reliable fact the Hadith that were discarded because the 9th century compiler considered them to have an unreliable chain of oral transmission during the intervening 200 odd years?

Because if you look at Muslim websites there seems to be various Muslims disputing the accuracy of some Hadith or another. Which includes Muslims disputing the accuracy of the report, handed down through oral tradition, of Aisha's age at marriage, partly because they think marrying that young doesn't tie in with the reports of Aisha helping in specific battles that reportedly took place soon after marriage.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/sep/17/muhammad-aisha-truth

[Brownie]

Phew!  All sounds quite familiar, Christians argue similarly.

[trippymonkey]

G Thanks for your enthusiasm - please see this page of sites ----

https://uk.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?hspart=ddc&hsimp=yhs-ddc_bd&p=mistakes%20in%20the%20Quran&type=bl-bcr-6YC2S__alt__ddc_dss_bd_com

Nick

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Naah - why would I pander to your laziness to make an argument by looking at yet another one of your website links. As your school reports probably used to tell you - "must try harder".

[JP]

I've met some ahmadiyya Muslims and they created a good impression with me, I do realise they are not recognised by other groups of Muslims.

It's a bit like how Jehovah's Witnesses are regarded by mainstream Christianity, they don't get acknowledged as Christians either ( come to that some Christians don't think Catholics are Christian either, even if the Protestant movement came out of them )

I guess many religions don't acknowledge other groups, that people for you 

Yet in my 60 years on this planet I have never known a person travel hundreds of miles to bludgeon another human to death just because they have a different way of believing in Christianity.

Not only that, but there is an alternative culture in the UK, one which would see the murderer being treat very leniantly or not being punished at all. People who see very little, or nothing wrong in his actions. That was quite clear on the day of sentencing.