Author Topic: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer  (Read 37500 times)

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2016, 12:12:36 PM »

One difference I have often heard said, is that a prayer is asking God respectfully whereas a spell is more about trying to influence events yourself.

That with Christianity a successful outcome is credited to God, but with Paganism it is the caster of the spell who is powerful.

I heard that the difference is that spells are credited to the caster.

Now this may not be true, and I don't see it always is, but some magic spells, by say a witch doctor does seem to be credited to him, rather than a deity.

Paganism is difficult to generalise about because it's so varied, but I'd be interested in your response Owlswing.

Do you think spells are more egotistical than prayers?

Your OP says  Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer

It doesn't seem to include Pagan prayer  :) unless you class a spell as a prayer.



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The comparison is pointless:  there is only one God who can answer prayers.
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Samuel

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2016, 01:13:51 PM »
Thor. Its Thor right?

no one, and I mean no one answers prayer like Thor. That guy is legit
A lot of people don't believe that the loch ness monster exists. Now, I don't know anything about zooology, biology, geology, herpetology, evolutionary theory, evolutionary biology, marine biology, cryptozoology, palaeontology or archaeology... but I think... what if a dinosaur got into the lake?

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2016, 04:19:24 PM »
Thor. Its Thor right?

no one, and I mean no one answers prayer like Thor. That guy is legit

Thor(t) someone would say that!  It's been done before - sorry, it wasn't funny then either.
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Bubbles

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2016, 06:39:48 PM »

The comparison is pointless:  there is only one God who can answer prayers.

But that's only your POV.

Lots of other people from other religions think their God answers prayers and they have just as much proof as you do.

How do you know it isn't actually their God being generous and answering your prayers, even though your God didn't  exist?

You have no proof it isn't actually Thor answering your prayers.

Half the Christian world prays to saints or Mary.

They still think they get an answer.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2016, 06:42:31 PM »
But that's only your POV.

Lots of other people from other religions think their God answers prayers and they have just as much proof as you do.

How do you know it isn't actually their God being generous and answering your prayers, even though your God didn't  exist?

You have no proof it isn't actually Thor answering your prayers.

Half the Christian world prays to saints or Mary.

They still think they get an answer.

How do you know they don't get an answer?  That is just your prejudice talking.
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Owlswing

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2016, 06:43:19 PM »

One difference I have often heard said, is that a prayer is asking God respectfully whereas a spell is more about trying to influence events yourself.

That with Christianity a successful outcome is credited to God, but with Paganism it is the caster of the spell who is powerful.

I heard that the difference is that spells are credited to the caster.


A Christian prayer, as I see it, is the supplicant asking God to do something for them. A Witch's spell asks for a deity's help in achieving a goal, the witch using the powers of the natural world to achieve a result. There are few witches whim I know or know of, who consider themselves to be powerful enough to do this kind of thing on their own.

The old saying that God (or a Goddess) helps those who help themselves would seem to apply. The witch knows (or most of them do) know they are cannot do it alone, and are not too proud to ask for help.   

Quote

Now this may not be true, and I don't see it always is, but some magic spells, by say a witch doctor does seem to be credited to him, rather than a deity.


A "witch-doctor" has nothing in common with a modern. or even the hsitorical, witch as witches operate.

Quoted from the Wikipedia topic "Witch-Doctor"

In its original meaning, witch doctors were emphatically not witches themselves, but rather people who had remedies to protect others against witchcraft. Witchcraft-induced conditions were their area of expertise, as described in this 1858 news report from England

Recourse was had by the girl's parents to a cunning man, named Burrell, residing at Copford, who has long borne the name of "The Wizard of the North:" but her case was of so peculiar a character as to baffle his skill to dissolve the spell, Application was next made to a witch doctor named Murrell, residing at Hadleigh, Essex, who undertook to effect a cure, giving a bottle of medication, for which he did not forget to charge 3s. 6d., and promising to pay a visit on Monday evening to the "old witch," Mrs. Mole, and put an end to her subtle arts... ... the news of the expected coming of the witch-doctor spread far and wide, and about eight o'clock there could not have been less than 200 people collected near the cottage of Mrs. Mole to witness the supernatural powers of the Hadleigh wizard.

Quote


Paganism is difficult to generalise about because it's so varied, but I'd be interested in your response Owlswing.

Do you think spells are more egotistical than prayers?


No.

Quote

Your OP says  Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer

It doesn't seem to include Pagan prayer  :) unless you class a spell as a prayer.


I do, this is the point. They are both applications to a deity, for Christians, asking it to do something for them; for pagans, asking it to assist them to do someting for themselves. 


« Last Edit: September 27, 2016, 09:04:51 AM by Owlswing »
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jeremyp

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2016, 06:47:49 PM »
You asked and I quote:
The difference is that the Christian prays knowing that their God is there and even if the person does not get well they will be in paradise with Christ.
The Witch knows there is no one there to answer or make her spell work.


So what you are saying is the difference is that the witch is not unbelievably arrogant.
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BashfulAnthony

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2016, 06:48:26 PM »

A Christian prayer should consist of professing your love of God; thanking Him for all His care; and lastly, asking for God's gift of care again, not merely for yourself, but for all people.
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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2016, 09:07:09 PM »
A Christian prayer, as I see it, is the supplicant asking God to do something for them. A Witch's spell asks for a deity's help in achieving a goal, the witch using the powers of the natural world to achieve a result. There are few witches whim I know or know of, who consider themselves to be powerful enough to do this kind of thing on their own.

The old saying that God (a a Goddess) helps those who help themselves would seem to apply. The witch knows (or most of them do) know they are cannot do it alone, and are not too proud to ask for help.   

A "witch-doctor" has nothing in common with a modern. or even the hsitorical, witch as witches operate.

Quoted from the Wikipedia topic "Witch-Doctor"

In its original meaning, witch doctors were emphatically not witches themselves, but rather people who had remedies to protect others against witchcraft. Witchcraft-induced conditions were their area of expertise, as described in this 1858 news report from England

Recourse was had by the girl's parents to a cunning man, named Burrell, residing at Copford, who has long borne the name of "The Wizard of the North:" but her case was of so peculiar a character as to baffle his skill to dissolve the spell, Application was next made to a witch doctor named Murrell, residing at Hadleigh, Essex, who undertook to effect a cure, giving a bottle of medication, for which he did not forget to charge 3s. 6d., and promising to pay a visit on Monday evening to the "old witch," Mrs. Mole, and put an end to her subtle arts... ... the news of the expected coming of the witch-doctor spread far and wide, and about eight o'clock there could not have been less than 200 people collected near the cottage of Mrs. Mole to witness the supernatural powers of the Hadleigh wizard.

No.

I do, this is the point. They are both applications to a deity, for Christians, asking it to do something for them; for pagans, asking it to assist them to do someting for themselves.

Ok thanks.

I had never looked at spells that way before.

 :)


Bubbles

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2016, 09:07:57 PM »
A Christian prayer should consist of professing your love of God; thanking Him for all His care; and lastly, asking for God's gift of care again, not merely for yourself, but for all people.
Perhaps Some Pagans do that too.


Bubbles

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2016, 09:09:07 PM »
How do you know they don't get an answer?  That is just your prejudice talking.

I don't assume Pagans don't get an answer.


Sassy

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #36 on: September 27, 2016, 02:48:04 AM »
So what you are saying is the difference is that the witch is not unbelievably arrogant.

Is that bad eggs...The truth is God answering prayers has nothing to do with 'arrogance''
Basically, your reply displays an example of ineffable ignorance.

You look at what is being said and all you have done is basically tried an action of  INSULT but there is no one person or deity in the discussion which deserves such a reply.

How can a belief, a deity or something true be an offensive display etc?

offensive display of superiority or self-importance; overbearing pride.
Your reply is not acceptable nor is it proper.

You really want to proceed with such an offensive manner?

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Sassy

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #37 on: September 27, 2016, 02:50:16 AM »
Quote
the witch using the powers of the natural world to achieve a result.
 

Which natural powers of the world?
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Owlswing

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #38 on: September 27, 2016, 07:13:42 AM »
 
Which natural powers of the world?


Your previous responses have indicated that you already know more about witches, their beliefs, their deities, and their works than I, so you already know the answer to your question, thus saving me from having to do so!

If you don't, and I suspect that this is actually the case, do some research yoiurself as you will, as always, reject out-of-hand anything that I tell you.

P S - I already know exactly what your response to this post is going to be. And I don't need a crystal ball, although I do have one, to tell me what it will be!

Edited for typo's.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2016, 07:16:39 AM by Owlswing »
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Bubbles

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #39 on: September 27, 2016, 07:39:56 AM »
I must admit I never saw spells as a form of prayer, spells seemed to be more Harry Potter and burying bacon in the garden to rub on warts later.

http://www.selfgrowth.com/articles/Prayers_Versus_Spells.html

Investigating further.

Its interesting.

« Last Edit: September 27, 2016, 08:01:17 AM by Rose »

Bubbles

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #40 on: September 27, 2016, 07:50:16 AM »
Ok this one discusses it but also brings out some of what I was driving at.

Quote
In this manner, learning prayer and learning spell casting is learning about Who and What you really are, and learning to act like That.  You are this Ancient Presence, That’s who and what you really are.  You are both what is prayed to, and what does the praying.  You are the Creator, the ultimate spell-caster.

Learning to pray and learning to cast spells are learning to act like who and what you really are.

This describes the meaning of the top point of the Sacred Pentagram of the witches: the top point represents the Ancient Presence (the Ancient Harmony).  It both radiates, and is supported or described by two lines (the God and the Goddess, or own-power and other-power, or spell-casting and prayer).  The line on the right is the fact that this Ancient Presence is perfectly Aware (the God, own-power, spell casting).  The line on the left is the fact that the Ancient Presence is an infinite ocean of potential experience (the Goddess, other-power, prayer).  These two lines radiate from the Ancient Harmony, to define the four points which are the Elements, the Children of the God and Goddess.  The four points which are the Elements, the Children of the God and Goddess support these two lines, the God and Goddess, which together define the Ancient Harmony.

Hopefully this gives some insight into the exact nature of both prayer and spell-casting, to their similarities and differences, and to the fact that they are inseparable: when you pray, you are also casting a spell, and when you cast a spell, you are also praying.

http://dreaminghades.com/magic-and-spells-vs-prayer




Christian Prayers externalise the creative source ( I.e. God) whereas spells internalise it in effect making yourself God.

My understanding is that it is this, a lot of Christians have issue with, because they see God as not being them, as important.

(Seen as  a form of Self worship?)

I suppose it's difficult because it depends who you read.

However spells seem to be seen as using the creative force within yourself, whereas Christian prayer seems to place great importance on acknowledging an outside source for listening and for the answering.


To see yourself as the source, in effect God, some Christians would see that as demonic.

You also have the imagery in Wicca, which increases their unease.

It depends how far a Christian is prepared to go in internalising their God. From some Christian perspectives it doesn't look good.

However I like Sikhism when it says there is a spark of divine in everyone, and Wicca doesn't seem so much different if you approach it from that angle. You contact that spark within yourself.

It's just a different approach.









« Last Edit: September 27, 2016, 08:14:10 AM by Rose »

Bubbles

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #41 on: September 27, 2016, 08:23:47 AM »
 


Which natural powers of the world?

Presumably things like the natural healing properties of some plants, like fennel for indigestion or honey and lemon for a sore throat.


Nearly Sane

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2016, 08:34:16 AM »
Interesting post, Rose but I think that while it is easy to think of things in boxes, the idea that Christians, pagans have such boxed beliefs doesn't match upnto the truth. As owlswing has pointed out, there are different approaches between witches and the internal/external view, and this is certainly true in Christianity.

To take one example there, I would suggest that Calvinism sees the individual as essentially a controlled offshoot of God. Also in the area of Christian mysticism, there is a much greater emphasis on the interconnectedness of everything wherein God being omnipresent means that the act of prayer is indeed an action from God. But even that sort of approach is a form of seeking simplicity when there is a continuum of belief.

To non believers as such as BeRational and myself, the view we have of both is they are much the same, as indeed they are to any superstitions such as rabbit's feet etc. Then, as gonnagle has raised in the past, many of us who look on such things as superstitions will often indulge in some magical thinking; in my case there is the mug that shouldn't be used. And even scientifically, there may be some sense in the ritualization of activity in that it helps the mind focus.

Owlswing

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #43 on: September 27, 2016, 09:03:29 AM »
Ok this one discusses it but also brings out some of what I was driving at.


Christian Prayers externalise the creative source ( I.e. God) whereas spells internalise it in effect making yourself God.

My understanding is that it is this, a lot of Christians have issue with, because they see God as not being them, as important.

(Seen as  a form of Self worship?)

I suppose it's difficult because it depends who you read.

However spells seem to be seen as using the creative force within yourself, whereas Christian prayer seems to place great importance on acknowledging an outside source for listening and for the answering.


To see yourself as the source, in effect God, some Christians would see that as demonic.

You also have the imagery in Wicca, which increases their unease.

It depends how far a Christian is prepared to go in internalising their God. From some Christian perspectives it doesn't look good.

However I like Sikhism when it says there is a spark of divine in everyone, and Wicca doesn't seem so much different if you approach it from that angle. You contact that spark within yourself.

It's just a different approach.

Two points - One, the site from which your quote comes is titled, in full, "Dreaming at the feet of Hades", and I have never known of any witch or Pagan who has had any connection with him, mainly because of his connection with an 'evil' force and therefore more in tune with negative, "black" if you must call it that, magic. Most witches avoid that side of the coin due to the application of the Three-Fold Law which states that 'whatever you send out, for good or ill, shall be returned to you three-fold'; so, despite the adage that 'if you cannot curse, you cannot cure', a curse and a cure being two sides of the same coin - the spells being almost identical but the result being opposite, pure 'evil' spells are usually avoided like the plague.

Two, the site and its writer are American and, as I have said before, American witchcraft and magic bear little resemblance, in some cases no resemblance whatsoever, to European and Norse witchcraft and magic. I have read through some of the site and find little that a European or Norse witch would recognise as being as they practice the Craft.   
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Owlswing

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2016, 09:14:24 AM »

And even scientifically, there may be some sense in the ritualization of activity in that it helps the mind focus.


Not only that, but it help to codify what you are doing in order to improve your results, in science as in the Craft.

A scientist seeking a scientific answer will try one path, if he does not get the answer that he expected or gets an answer that suggests a flaw in his expected answer or his process he will modify the process, his path, of investigation until he gets a definitive answer to his question.

With witches it is the same process but the answer is not always as obvioius.
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An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Nearly Sane

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2016, 09:24:07 AM »
Not only that, but it help to codify what you are doing in order to improve your results, in science as in the Craft.

A scientist seeking a scientific answer will try one path, if he does not get the answer that he expected or gets an answer that suggests a flaw in his expected answer or his process he will modify the process, his path, of investigation until he gets a definitive answer to his question.

With witches it is the same process but the answer is not always as obvioius.

Mmm I think this misunderstands what a good scientists should do, but that would be a massive derail to go into in any detail. It's much closer to technology which while based on science is not science itself.

NicholasMarks

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #46 on: September 28, 2016, 01:10:52 PM »
Mmm I think this misunderstands what a good scientists should do, but that would be a massive derail to go into in any detail. It's much closer to technology which while based on science is not science itself.


Did I hear someone call my name??  No?? Well I can certainly help to unravel this conundrum...You see...witch-craft plays on the mind and will often leave the victim...sorry, target...in a confused and distressed state...witch-craft and paganism not to mention aggressive institutions all do the same thing. They wind up the psyche of those they can reach and destroy the moral fibre of the individual...now...the difference is, between them and Jesus is that Jesus Christ upbuilds our moral fibre...he soothes and calms our genetic health and he starts a pyche repair programme...all through the power of prayer.

...no contest.

Leonard James

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2016, 01:18:48 PM »

Did I hear someone call my name??  No?? Well I can certainly help to unravel this conundrum...You see...witch-craft plays on the mind and will often leave the victim...sorry, target...in a confused and distressed state...witch-craft and paganism not to mention aggressive institutions all do the same thing. They wind up the psyche of those they can reach and destroy the moral fibre of the individual...now...the difference is, between them and Jesus is that Jesus Christ upbuilds our moral fibre...he soothes and calms our genetic health and he starts a pyche repair programme...all through the power of prayer.

...no contest.

There is no difference between ANY beliefs in that respect. They all affect the believer's behaviour.

The only people unaffected by belief are those who realise this.

NicholasMarks

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #48 on: September 28, 2016, 01:44:43 PM »
There is no difference between ANY beliefs in that respect. They all affect the believer's behaviour.

The only people unaffected by belief are those who realise this.

We will have to agree to differ then Leonard...but I have discovered that the act of righteous prayer delivers a special, spiritual strength, that can talk to our genetics...just as Jesus said...when he said God's spiritual waters can reach areas in the body quenching those desparate thirsts where no other refreshment can reach...and I think I know why.


SweetPea

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #49 on: September 28, 2016, 02:15:44 PM »
Nicholas here:


Did I hear someone call my name??  No?? Well I can certainly help to unravel this conundrum...You see...witch-craft plays on the mind and will often leave the victim...sorry, target...in a confused and distressed state...witch-craft and paganism not to mention aggressive institutions all do the same thing. They wind up the psyche of those they can reach and destroy the moral fibre of the individual...now...the difference is, between them and Jesus is that Jesus Christ upbuilds our moral fibre...he soothes and calms our genetic health and he starts a pyche repair programme...all through the power of prayer.

...no contest.

.... and here:

We will have to agree to differ then Leonard...but I have discovered that the act of righteous prayer delivers a special, spiritual strength, that can talk to our genetics...just as Jesus said...when he said God's spiritual waters can reach areas in the body quenching those desparate thirsts where no other refreshment can reach...and I think I know why.

.... you are probably the most 'grace'-ful poster I've come across. I don't look at or post on any other forums so I guess there will be others 'full of grace' elsewhere, no doubt.


Anyway, I'm with Nicholas on this one. Castings spells, be they good or bad, is using magick and not of the Holy Spirit. If you turn against or away from witchcraft you'll find yourself being attacked by demonic spirits. This is the seducing spirit attacking. The only way to stop such an attack is to call on the name of Jesus Christ and the demons vanish, leaving you with the most indescribable peace. "The peace that passeth all understanding", I guess.... and have been witness to.
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power and of love and of a sound mind ~ 2 Timothy 1:7