Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer

[Owlswing]

Anyway, I'm with Nicholas on this one. Castings spells, be they good or bad, is using magick and not of the Holy Spirit. If you turn against or away from witchcraft you'll find yourself being attacked by demonic spirits. This is the seducing spirit attacking. The only way to stop such an attack is to call on the name of Jesus Christ and the demons vanish, leaving you with the most indescribable peace. "The peace that passeth all understanding", I guess.... and have been witness to.

And just how many witches/pagans have you ever met and spoken to about their beliefs before you decided to write this laod of old rubbish?

A nice round number I would guess, just like the rest of you beknighted Christian bretheren.

Though I expect one, whom I shall refrain from naming for the time being, will almost certainly claim to have known and spoken to dozens from all over the world.

You just spout the same nonsense that cost thousnds of lives between 1430 and 1750 (or thereabouts) as preached by Heinrich Kramer and Jacob Sprenger.

[Leonard James]

We will have to agree to differ then Leonard...but I have discovered that the act of righteous prayer delivers a special, spiritual strength, that can talk to our genetics...just as Jesus said...when he said God's spiritual waters can reach areas in the body quenching those desparate thirsts where no other refreshment can reach...and I think I know why.

Yes, I have told you why, but I accept that your belief renders you unable to recognise the reality of the situation..

[Sebastian Toe]

They wind up the psyche of those they can reach and destroy the moral fibre of the individual.

Are you saying that Owlswing has had his moral fibre destroyed?

[Sassy]

Your previous responses have indicated that you already know more about witches, their beliefs, their deities, and their works than I, so you already know the answer to your question, thus saving me from having to do so!

You cannot riddle out of  it that way. We know that pagans worship the forces of nature.
They in themselves are NOT 'NATURAL' powers. Fire, Earth, Air and Water are called natural elements. But you never referred to any of the above just Natural powers of the WORLD.

You referred to powers not elements and not the forces of nature. SO you need to answer and explain what Natural powers of the world you are referring to.

If you don't, and I suspect that this is actually the case, do some research yoiurself as you will, as always, reject out-of-hand anything that I tell you.

P S - I already know exactly what your response to this post is going to be. And I don't need a crystal ball, although I do have one, to tell me what it will be!

Edited for typo's.

Ahead of yourself and still wrong,. Because you have to show the NATURAL POWERS OF THE WORLD.

[Sassy]

Presumably things like the natural healing properties of some plants, like fennel for indigestion or honey and lemon for a sore throat.

They are like herbal remedies in themselves they hold no power. Owlswing said NATURAL POWERS OF THE WORLD.  Plants in and potions derived like all medcines come the properties of the plants used. They are not a power for the world.

[Owlswing]

You cannot riddle out of  it that way. We know that pagans worship the forces of nature.
They in themselves are NOT 'NATURAL' powers. Fire, Earth, Air and Water are called natural elements. But you never referred to any of the above just Natural powers of the WORLD.

You referred to powers not elements and not the forces of nature. SO you need to answer and explain what Natural powers of the world you are referring to.Ahead of yourself and still wrong,. Because you have to show the NATURAL POWERS OF THE WORLD.

I don't have to show you anything - you have repeatedly told me that you know more about witches and pagans than I do - so suck it up kiddo!

[Sassy]

I don't have to show you anything - you have repeatedly told me that you know more about witches and pagans than I do - so suck it up kiddo!

I have NEVER said I know more about witches and pagans than you do.
That is untrue. BUT I do know more about the sum beliefs and where they come from.

Oh everyone can see you are running away! I have summed up all the facts of pagan beliefs and the forces they use of nature. But you cannot show because you a made a blunder spouting about NATURAL FORCES OF THE WORLD. When in truth you were referring to the things I said. Tree spirits or water nymphs not guiding you? The Spirits of the air all ran away have they. Or have you run out of eye of newt and wing of bat or foot of toad?

Let's be honest, you lost because all you believe in can be summed up in the forces of nature and nothing outside it, like God the Father or Jesus Christ to support.

How you have fallen when you know you cannot give an answer because I am right and you would have to admit it, if you ever did.  I am sucking nothing up but you are fallen flat on your face and your lips have suctioned you to the pavement.

[SweetPea]

And just how many witches/pagans have you ever met and spoken to about their beliefs before you decided to write this laod of old rubbish?

A nice round number I would guess, just like the rest of you beknighted Christian bretheren.

Though I expect one, whom I shall refrain from naming for the time being, will almost certainly claim to have known and spoken to dozens from all over the world.

You just spout the same nonsense that cost thousnds of lives between 1430 and 1750 (or thereabouts) as preached by Heinrich Kramer and Jacob Sprenger.

Owlswing, I don't wish you ill.... no, rather I wish you well. Ha,ha.... wishes! But I'd give anything for you to find what I've found. I was into New Age for some years, not exactly pagan I know, but a branch of paganism, and I found myself looking at Christians with scorn.... oh, yes, and Jesus Christ was disappearing, very gradually.... becoming further and further away. Everything was wonderful and we thought we were gods.... huge red flag! But this is how Lucifer works.... it's literally a spell.... I was under hypnosis. The moment I rejected my New Age beliefs I was 'attacked', and by golly was it frightening to the point of being terrifying. I've been through some difficult/frightening times in my life but nothing, nothing to match that moment. After a while I realised what was happening and called on Jesus Christ. Well, I can't really describe it, but the 'attack' melted away, and as I mentioned above the ensuing peace was something I've never known before. I'm sharing this with you because I've literally experienced the power of Jesus Christ, and hope one day you will, too.

The so-called Christians that burned pagans at the times you mentioned were not of Christ. Nobody could perform such dastardly acts if they were a true follower of Christ Jesus.

[Nearly Sane]

Leaving aside the No True Scotsman that you've tried here, SweetPea, you still think owlswing is  working with demons.

[Owlswing]

The so-called Christians that burned pagans at the times you mentioned were not of Christ. Nobody could perform such dastardly acts if they were a true follower of Christ Jesus.

So-called Christians? Heinrich Kramer and Jacob Sprenger were Dominican monks and members of the Inquisition withthe direct authority of Pope Innocent VIII.

Those burned were NOT pagans, they were not even witches. The vast majority were Christians, Catholic Christians, who confessed to being involved in witchcraft under torture which, in a great many cases, was not stopped until 'accomplices' had been named. 'Accomplices' who were then arrested and similarly tortured into confession and further naming of 'accomplices'.

All done in the name of the Christian faith in order to cleanse the world of heresy!

Even modern witches are considered heretics to the Catholic faith and the Inquisition still exists as, from 1908 to 1965, the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office, and Pope Benedict XVI, formerly Cardinal Joseph Aloisius Ratzinger was head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith formerly known as the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Roman and Universal Inquisition.

NOT Christians - I'll bet the Catholics think that they are!

[Owlswing]

I have NEVER said I know more about witches and pagans than you do.
That is untrue. BUT I do know more about the sum beliefs and where they come from.

Oh everyone can see you are running away! I have summed up all the facts of pagan beliefs and the forces they use of nature. But you cannot show because you a made a blunder spouting about NATURAL FORCES OF THE WORLD. When in truth you were referring to the things I said. Tree spirits or water nymphs not guiding you? The Spirits of the air all ran away have they. Or have you run out of eye of newt and wing of bat or foot of toad?

Let's be honest, you lost because all you believe in can be summed up in the forces of nature and nothing outside it, like God the Father or Jesus Christ to support.

How you have fallen when you know you cannot give an answer because I am right and you would have to admit it, if you ever did.  I am sucking nothing up but you are fallen flat on your face and your lips have suctioned you to the pavement.

Natural powers - you deny that Earth, Air, Fire, and Water are natural powers, that they are only elements.

The power of Earth is demonstrated in every earthquake, and also in its constancy, even after an earthquake it reruns to the state in which it can and is used for agriculture etc. In spells it is Earth's connection with fertility, stability, strength that is invoked.

The power of Air is demonstrated in storms and hurricanes. In spells it is Air's ability to cleanse, to remove dead matter and its necessity for continuing life that are invoked.

The power of Fire can be seen in forest fires and in volcanoes. Its power to purify, cleanse, its force and energy are invoked in spell working.

The power of Water, see tsunami. Its ability to cleanse and aid healing, and its absolute necessity for life to continue is called upon in spells.

As said previously you will, of course, reject this, as your God must, to buttress your belief, be the only source of any of these effects.

You can call it running away if you like, I do not. I call it turning my back on someone who is so blinkered that she cannot see beyond her childhood indoctrination which has robbed her of her ability to question, thus preventing any kind of meaningful discussion.

However, you are happy with your road and I am happy with my path and never the twain shall meet. I will never convince you that you may be wrong and, so far, you have said nothing that would convince me to return to Christianity. You go your way and I'll go mine, preferrably with us starting back-to-back!

If, because of that, I am condemned to Hell for eternity I have no problem with it, one, because I prefer warm climates to sweet music and two, I would find spending eternity with most, not all, of the Christians on this forum to be pure unadulterated Hell on Wheels. 

[Brownie]

I have never known a witch or a pagan.  Only encountered a couple of them on this forum.
I'm not concerned with spells versus prayers but wonder if peace of mind and relatively good nature is different between pagan/witches and Christians?  Rhiannon was a positive example of a kindly, well balanced pagan.  I can't think of anyone else.

Do pagans or witches generally take their beliefs seriously or are they some kind of weird hobby?

[Owlswing]

I have never known a witch or a pagan.  Only encountered a couple of them on this forum.
I'm not concerned with spells versus prayers but wonder if peace of mind and relatively good nature is different between pagan/witches and Christians?  Rhiannon was a positive example of a kindly, well balanced pagan.  I can't think of anyone else.

Do pagans or witches generally take their beliefs seriously or are they some kind of weird hobby?

The only ones who do not take their beliefs serriously are usually teenage girls who want to be able to tell their mates that they are witches.

These do not usually stay long as a coven is generally not very happy having coven business discussed with outsiders. This especially applies to 'outing' other members of the coven by using or making public their real names. OK, some do not mind but those in professions like the law or banking or the police tend to keep their beliefs private as there are still those who pagan as somewhat untrustworthy.

One recent Archbishop of Canterbury had his ability to hold that office questioned as he was a druid.

Most witches and pagans (not all pagans are witches (Rhiannon was not) but the vast mjority of witches are pagan) have peace of mind and are relatively good nature except when the biased and the ignorant question those beliefs for no other reason than they are not the same as theirs and are therefore dismissed as being (insert derogatory terms of your choice).

[Sassy]

Natural powers - you deny that Earth, Air, Fire, and Water are natural powers, that they are only elements.

Never denied anything... I simply proved the point they are FORCES OF NATURE and as such they are already included in the things of pagan worship. They are not NATURAL POWERS OF THE WORLD.

The power of Earth is demonstrated in every earthquake, and also in its constancy, even after an earthquake it reruns to the state in which it can and is used for agriculture etc. In spells it is Earth's connection with fertility, stability, strength that is invoked.

It means nothing in relation to what has already been discussed. You said natural powers of the world not the forces of nature.
I pointed out to you as I am doing yet again. The the pagan worship is really about the worship of the  forces of nature.
Now what are the NATURAL POWERS OF THE WORLD.

The power of Air is demonstrated in storms and hurricanes. In spells it is Air's ability to cleanse, to remove dead matter and its necessity for continuing life that are invoked.

Again forces of nature sin NOT a Natural power of the world. Because a Natural power of the WORLD would present constantly and I don't see a 24 hour storm, hurricanes or even earthquakes constantly going on everywhere in the world.

The power of Fire can be seen in forest fires and in volcanoes. Its power to purify, cleanse, its force and energy are invoked in spell working.

The power of Water, see tsunami. Its ability to cleanse and aid healing, and its absolute necessity for life to continue is called upon in spells.

As said previously you will, of course, reject this, as your God must, to buttress your belief, be the only source of any of these effects.

Irrelevant they are forces of nature not NATURAL POWERS OF THE WORLD.
TO be a natural power they would constantly have to be present 24/7

You can call it running away if you like, I do not. I call it turning my back on someone who is so blinkered that she cannot see beyond her childhood indoctrination which has robbed her of her ability to question, thus preventing any kind of meaningful discussion.

The same old rubbish you got it so wrong and cannot man-up to your own failing. As I pointed out they are NOT NATURAL POWERS OF THE WORLD. They are forces of nature and they are not present or constant as a natural power of the world would be.  You claimed the NATURAL POWERS OF THE WORLD. I proved you only believe in the forces of nature as power and when asked to show these NATURAL POWERS OF THE WORLD, YOU COULDN'T. EPIC FAIL.

However, you are happy with your road and I am happy with my path and never the twain shall meet. I will never convince you that you may be wrong and, so far, you have said nothing that would convince me to return to Christianity. You go your way and I'll go mine, preferrably with us starting back-to-back!

If, because of that, I am condemned to Hell for eternity I have no problem with it, one, because I prefer warm climates to sweet music and two, I would find spending eternity with most, not all, of the Christians on this forum to be pure unadulterated Hell on Wheels.

No! you haven't asnwered the question.
Show us what NATURAL POWERS OF THE WORLD you referred to.

I have answered every point, proved every point and all you have done is ignored the truth of your own blunder and tried to move the goal post. If you cannot show the NATURAL POWERS OF THE WORLD, outside the forces of nature then we all know that you were spouting nonsense and cannot admit you got it wrong.

[Sassy]

Owlswing on September 26, 2016, 06:43:19 PM

the witch using the powers of the natural world to achieve a result.

 

Which natural powers of the world?

You cannot riddle out of  it that way. We know that pagans worship the forces of nature.
They in themselves are NOT 'NATURAL' powers. Fire, Earth, Air and Water are called natural elements. But you never referred to any of the above just Natural powers of the WORLD.

You referred to powers not elements and not the forces of nature. SO you need to answer and explain what Natural powers of the world you are referring to.Ahead of yourself and still wrong,. Because you have to show the NATURAL POWERS OF THE WORLD.

As the gist of the conversation shows... Natural elements and forces of nature are not what is being discussed.
You have been asked to provide the POWERS OF THE NATURAL world which you claim witches use to acheive their purpose.

I have proved you wrong on every post written by you so far in response to the above.

Why not just admit you got it wrong?

[Sassy]

As you can see I wrote yesterday....

You cannot riddle out of  it that way. We know that pagans worship the forces of nature.
They in themselves are NOT 'NATURAL' powers. Fire, Earth, Air and Water are called natural elements. But you never referred to any of the above just Natural powers of the WORLD.

You referred to powers not elements and not the forces of nature. SO you need to answer and explain what Natural powers of the world you are referring to.Ahead of yourself and still wrong,. Because you have to show the NATURAL POWERS OF THE WORLD.

Yet today,

Totally ignoring the above Owlswing wrote:

Natural powers - you deny that Earth, Air, Fire, and Water are natural powers, that they are only elements.

The power of Earth is demonstrated in every earthquake, and also in its constancy, even after an earthquake it reruns to the state in which it can and is used for agriculture etc. In spells it is Earth's connection with fertility, stability, strength that is invoked.

The power of Air is demonstrated in storms and hurricanes. In spells it is Air's ability to cleanse, to remove dead matter and its necessity for continuing life that are invoked.

The power of Fire can be seen in forest fires and in volcanoes. Its power to purify, cleanse, its force and energy are invoked in spell working.

The power of Water, see tsunami. Its ability to cleanse and aid healing, and its absolute necessity for life to continue is called upon in spells.

As said previously you will, of course, reject this, as your God must, to buttress your belief, be the only source of any of these effects.

You can call it running away if you like, I do not. I call it turning my back on someone who is so blinkered that she cannot see beyond her childhood indoctrination which has robbed her of her ability to question, thus preventing any kind of meaningful discussion.

However, you are happy with your road and I am happy with my path and never the twain shall meet. I will never convince you that you may be wrong and, so far, you have said nothing that would convince me to return to Christianity. You go your way and I'll go mine, preferrably with us starting back-to-back!

If, because of that, I am condemned to Hell for eternity I have no problem with it, one, because I prefer warm climates to sweet music and two, I would find spending eternity with most, not all, of the Christians on this forum to be pure unadulterated Hell on Wheels. 

The truth is that Owlswing knows as I pointed out:-
We know that pagans worship the forces of nature. Such elements as fire, wind, air and water are all part of nature.
They are good servants but bad masters.
However these things have NO POWER in the casting of spells by witches OR the worship of them as pagans.
Since they are not Natural powers of the world and have no power outside their existence to help us or harm us.
As servants they are helpful but as master they are disastrous to us. The elements and the forces of nature have no controlling body and cannot be summoned to do our bidding in casting a spell.

So now we have established a 'no get out clause'. Perhaps Owlswing will explain the powers of the natural world and tell us what they are what they do.

Owlswing on September 26, 2016, 06:43:19 PM

the witch using the powers of the natural world to achieve a result.

[Owlswing]

Jesus bleedin' Christ, Sassy - no wonder people are leaving the Church in their droves!

Please do not expect any more responses from me; I am going back to my policy (taken upon expert advice) of totally ignoring you rather than set myself up to be suspended or banned by the Mods - which, if I respond as I feel like doing when I read your heaps of crap, I assuredly will!

[SweetPea]

Owlswing, any 'burning' by anyone calling themselves a Christian is a Satanic act, and not by someone who is a true follower of Christ.... be they a Pope or not.

[Nearly Sane]

I have never known a witch or a pagan.  Only encountered a couple of them on this forum.
I'm not concerned with spells versus prayers but wonder if peace of mind and relatively good nature is different between pagan/witches and Christians?  Rhiannon was a positive example of a kindly, well balanced pagan.  I can't think of anyone else.

Do pagans or witches generally take their beliefs seriously or are they some kind of weird hobby?

so let's see first of all you brand Owlswing and  horsethorn on here as non kindly non well  balanced pagans. You  then seem to imply  that overall they are less kindly and less well balanced than Christians and you finish by questioning their integrity and thinking they  are weird. Do you perhaps want to again and try for the full condescension?

[Sassy]

Jesus bleedin' Christ, Sassy - no wonder people are leaving the Church in their droves!

Please do not expect any more responses from me; I am going back to my policy (taken upon expert advice) of totally ignoring you rather than set myself up to be suspended or banned by the Mods - which, if I respond as I feel like doing when I read your heaps of crap, I assuredly will!

I see when all else fails you run away. It has happened throughout history where God is, and God shows the lack of foundations in some of the beliefs of mankind. What I do not understand is why when  you believe and admit your beliefs are not founded in truth, you throw your rattle out of the pram when it is proved.

[Owlswing]

I see when all else fails you run away. It has happened throughout history where God is, and God shows the lack of foundations in some of the beliefs of mankind. What I do not understand is why when  you believe and admit your beliefs are not founded in truth, you throw your rattle out of the pram when it is proved.

One last answer - you have proved nothing. You have made assertions, you have stated your beliefs, but you have proved nothing and can prove nothing.

To put it bluntly you are full of piss and wind and throw your toys out of your pram the second anyone has the temerity to question your so-called truth and more and more people are rejecting your so-called truth and turning to other beliefs from atheism to paganism and all stations in between and that really ticks you off and long may it continue to do so.

[Nearly Sane]

One last answer - you have proved nothing. You have made assertions, you have stated your beliefs, but you have proved nothing and can prove nothing.

To put it bluntly you are full of piss and wind and throw your toys out of your pram the second anyone has the temerity to question your so-called truth and more and more people are rejecting your so-called truth and turning to other beliefs from atheism to paganism and all stations in between and that really ticks you off and long may it continue to do so.

Atheism is not a belief

[Owlswing]

Atheism is not a belief

By my definition atheism is a belief that there are no gods! You call it what the heck you like, but I consider it covers everything from a belief that there are no gods to a disbelief in the existence of any god.

For all practical purposes I consider them to be the same thing, right or wrong.

[Nearly Sane]

By my definition atheism is a belief that there are no gods! You call it what the heck you like, but I consider it covers everything from a belief that there are no gods to a disbelief in the existence of any god.

For all practical purposes I consider them to be the same thing, right or wrong.

The two ranges you give here are essentially the same, and miss out that as an atheist I simply have a lack of a belief in gods. I lack a belief in whurtyboup too. But it's not a belief that there are no whurtyboup, or have a disbelief in the existence of any whurtyboups.

[BeRational]

By my definition atheism is a belief that there are no gods! You call it what the heck you like, but I consider it covers everything from a belief that there are no gods to a disbelief in the existence of any god.

For all practical purposes I consider them to be the same thing, right or wrong.

It's wrong.

Atheists do not believe in a god or gods.