Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer

[Sebastian Toe]

Christian Prayer will win every time when it come competing with witch/pagan spell VS Christian prayer

There's only one way to find out.........
FIGHT!!!!!!!!!

[Owlswing]

Read post 53.

There beliefs being in the forces of nature and I have shown the elements to be not what he is talking about.I know exactly what there beliefs and SPELLS are based on. But he  has not answered the relevant question because he got it wrong.

You KNOW Sweet F . ..  - Sweet Fanny Adams about paganism!
 

[Owlswing]

Not only that but it is an admitted and even celebrated fact that there are almost infinitely many paths which you can choose ... or rather, which can choose you. There's no central authority figure (a pope, etc.) and no central authority organisation handing down what you must believe.

Owlswing's knowledge displayed on this thread has been fascinating to read, btw.

Thanks Shaker - Happy New Year by the way!

[Anchorman]

I may not share pagan beliefs, though I respect those who do. That's probably an Egyptology thing again - I came across 'Omm Sety' many years ago. She claimed to have lived as a priestess in the stunning temple of Abydos at the time of Seti I., and even in her present life, was a devotee of Amun-re and Osiris. She could have been dismissed as a crank, were it not for her very detailed knowledge of the court in late dyn XVIII and early dyn XIX Egypt - and the undeniable facts that she was able to show the location of buildings and statues which had not, at that time, been excavated. When I was at Abdju (Abydos) in 1980, I was less than a hundred yards from the shack in which she lived, but, as her health was very poor and in decline, we were advised not to disturb her. She died shortly afterward. Renowned and scholarly archaeologists respected her knowledge and skill as a draughtswoman, and valued her insights, which added to the sum of detail of that period. I wish I'd met her.

[Jack Knave]

I may not share pagan beliefs, though I respect those who do. That's probably an Egyptology thing again - I came across 'Omm Sety' many years ago. She claimed to have lived as a priestess in the stunning temple of Abydos at the time of Seti I., and even in her present life, was a devotee of Amun-re and Osiris. She could have been dismissed as a crank, were it not for her very detailed knowledge of the court in late dyn XVIII and early dyn XIX Egypt - and the undeniable facts that she was able to show the location of buildings and statues which had not, at that time, been excavated. When I was at Abdju (Abydos) in 1980, I was less than a hundred yards from the shack in which she lived, but, as her health was very poor and in decline, we were advised not to disturb her. She died shortly afterward. Renowned and scholarly archaeologists respected her knowledge and skill as a draughtswoman, and valued her insights, which added to the sum of detail of that period. I wish I'd met her.

Aren't you Christian?

How would you explain such an occurrence?

[Anchorman]

Yep. Evangelical to boot, JK. That doesn't stop me respecting others faith or non faith stance, even if I don't share it, though. How would I explain Omm Sety? I honestly don't know. I could shove psychobabble into the mix, but in the end, I'm willing to admit that she remains a very intriguing enigma.

[Owlswing]

Yep. Evangelical to boot, JK. That doesn't stop me respecting others faith or non faith stance, even if I don't share it, though. How would I explain Omm Sety? I honestly don't know. I could shove psychobabble into the mix, but in the end, I'm willing to admit that she remains a very intriguing enigma.

I read the article you recommended. Very interesting, but I find such things hard to accept and sometimes even harder to reject.

[Anchorman]

You and me both, Owlswing!

[Brownie]

Owl, I have read the entire thread but couldn't really think of anything to say that others haven't said.  Paganism is such a vast subject with so many branches (or streams and tributaries), which you explained to us before on a previous thread.  I find it interesting but feel nervous and reluctant to delve too far;  that doesn't sound rational but feelings aren't always rational.

However, this bit from you is lovely:

For someone who is stressed the sound of a breeze in the leaves and the sound of birdsong can effect a change.

Also looking up at the sky and seeing clouds moving gently is relaxing.

[Jack Knave]

Yep. Evangelical to boot, JK. That doesn't stop me respecting others faith or non faith stance, even if I don't share it, though. How would I explain Omm Sety? I honestly don't know. I could shove psychobabble into the mix, but in the end, I'm willing to admit that she remains a very intriguing enigma.

It's ironic that you use the term psychobabble, you being religious and all that...

Do you think your God knows how to explain Omm Sety?

[Brownie]

I googled Omm Sety, Jack, as I'd never heard of her.   What a fascinating character!  A local lass too (to me), born in Blackheath and expelled from a school in Dulwich (why do I find her a kindred spirit?). 
"Foreign accent syndrome", very unusual.  She liked the Catholic Mass too.

I have to say that I found some of what I read about her 'spooky' and am reluctant to delve further.   Here's a bit from the Wiki article for anyone else who hasn't heard of her:

Dorothy Louise Eady was born in London in 1904, and raised in a coastal town.[2] At the age of three, after falling down a flight of stairs, she began exhibiting strange behaviours, asking that she be "brought home".[3] She also had developed the foreign accent syndrome. This caused some conflict in her early life. Her Sunday school teacher requested that her parents keep her away from class, because she had compared Christianity with "heathen" ancient Egyptian religion.[4] She was expelled from a Dulwich girls school after she refused to sing a hymn that called on God to "curse the swart Egyptians".[4] Her regular visits to Catholic mass, which she liked because it reminded her of the "Old Religion", were terminated after an interrogation and visit to her parents by a priest
 
Some things really cannot be explained.  As Anchor said, she was an enigma.

(Hope we haven't derailed too much, Owlswing)

[Jack Knave]

I googled Omm Sety, Jack, as I'd never heard of her.   What a fascinating character!  A local lass too (to me), born in Blackheath and expelled from a school in Dulwich (why do I find her a kindred spirit?). 
"Foreign accent syndrome", very unusual.  She liked the Catholic Mass too.

I have to say that I found some of what I read about her 'spooky' and am reluctant to delve further.   Here's a bit from the Wiki article for anyone else who hasn't heard of her:

Dorothy Louise Eady was born in London in 1904, and raised in a coastal town.[2] At the age of three, after falling down a flight of stairs, she began exhibiting strange behaviours, asking that she be "brought home".[3] She also had developed the foreign accent syndrome. This caused some conflict in her early life. Her Sunday school teacher requested that her parents keep her away from class, because she had compared Christianity with "heathen" ancient Egyptian religion.[4] She was expelled from a Dulwich girls school after she refused to sing a hymn that called on God to "curse the swart Egyptians".[4] Her regular visits to Catholic mass, which she liked because it reminded her of the "Old Religion", were terminated after an interrogation and visit to her parents by a priest
 
Some things really cannot be explained.  As Anchor said, she was an enigma.

(Hope we haven't derailed too much, Owlswing)

Thanks you that.

I've heard of cases like this before. In my teens and early 20's I was into all this stuff - UFO's, ghosts and the like and cases like Omm sety came up. I eventually concluded that as I hadn't actually seen or observed any of this; and there were cases shown to be frauds and jokes, it seemed prudent to just put it aside and wait and see if anything really conclusive ever came along, which it pretty much hasn't. I.e. seeing is believing.

[Anchorman]

The problem though, is that many eminent Egyptologists, from Howard Carter through Emery to Redford and Habachi were impressed by her knowledge of the Abdju area - and that she predicted the 'Kn-hb-set' garden's location at the Seti Temple - before any excavation had revealed it. Again, I have no explanation for this. I'm usually very sceptical of this kind of thing - Egyptology has long had to contend with pyramidiots and mystics who claimed 'hidden knowledge (as well as the horrors of the Victorian romantic historians), but Omm Sety remains an enigma. (Sorry for disrupting your thread, Owlswing - would you wish the mods to split it?)

[Outrider]

Christian Prayer will win every time when it come competing with witch/pagan spell VS Christian prayer.

I suspect that experiment's going to prove to be a really long, really drawn-out, no-score draw.

Christian prayer does not ram anything down anyones throat.

Perhaps not, but some Christians do ram those prayers down people's throats. Not all, just some.

It is never a competition because as Elisha taught us.

Not everyone who professes belief necessarily recalls what Elisha taught...

O.

[Owlswing]

The problem though, is that many eminent Egyptologists, from Howard Carter through Emery to Redford and Habachi were impressed by her knowledge of the Abdju area - and that she predicted the 'Kn-hb-set' garden's location at the Seti Temple - before any excavation had revealed it. Again, I have no explanation for this. I'm usually very sceptical of this kind of thing - Egyptology has long had to contend with pyramidiots and mystics who claimed 'hidden knowledge (as well as the horrors of the Victorian romantic historians), but Omm Sety remains an enigma. (Sorry for disrupting your thread, Owlswing - would you wish the mods to split it?)

I don't think it needs splitting - most of us on here are intelligent enough to pursue the two tracks as is!

[Owlswing]

I suspect that experiment's going to prove to be a really long, really drawn-out, no-score draw.

Perhaps not, but some Christians do ram those prayers down people's throats. Not all, just some.

Not everyone who professes belief necessarily recalls what Elisha taught...

O.

To one "O" from another "O" . . . (accompanied by a quiet childish giggle!)

This is the problem that most non-Christians will have to face sooner or later and probably continuously through life - Christians, like Sassy and a couple of others on this Forum, do not see their continual and continuous proselytising as being "ramming Christianity down other people's throats". They see it as a God(their God)-given right to preach the Gospel.

They do not see it as a, frequently unwelcome, intrusion into their lives. Oh, I agree that there are varying degrees of this intrusion, but if a person being proselytised is happy and comfortable in their non-Christian beliefs, the inability of these die-hard Christians to accept "NO" for an answer, regardless of the degree of politeness in which the "NO" is given, the ability to refrain from violence can be stretched almost to breaking point!

[Outrider]

This is the problem that most non-Christians will have to face sooner or later and probably continuously through life - Christians, like Sassy and a couple of others on this Forum, do not see their continual and continuous proselytising as being "ramming Christianity down other people's throats". They see it as a God(their God)-given right to preach the Gospel.

On the forum I don't see it as an issue - whilst it's not precisely what I come here for, it's an understandable position on the range of responses to the general topic, and we're coming here to discuss these sorts of issues and areas. It's when religion gets pressed on people in everyday life that I take umbrage - my local area, for instance, has two infant/junior schools, one of which is Catholic and the other C of E. How do you avoid religious themes being pressed upon your children in such a situation?

Oh, I agree that there are varying degrees of this intrusion, but if a person being proselytised is happy and comfortable in their non-Christian beliefs, the inability of these die-hard Christians to accept "NO" for an answer, regardless of the degree of politeness in which the "NO" is given, the ability to refrain from violence can be stretched almost to breaking point!

I have to say, if all someone is doing is preaching to you, violence isn't necessary. Threats of eternal hellfire and damnation have the same effect on me as warnings I'm about to step in unicorn-poo. It's when it's being inflicted on those without the capacity to frame a coherent rebuttal (i.e. chidren, the mentally challenged) or when it's being used as justification (or, worse, motivation with pathetic excuses as justification) for laws that limit people's lives and freedoms that we start to get real problems.

O.

[Shaker]

To one "O" from another "O" . . . (accompanied by a quiet childish giggle!)

This is the problem that most non-Christians will have to face sooner or later and probably continuously through life - Christians, like Sassy and a couple of others on this Forum, do not see their continual and continuous proselytising as being "ramming Christianity down other people's throats". They see it as a God(their God)-given right to preach the Gospel.

They do not see it as a, frequently unwelcome, intrusion into their lives. Oh, I agree that there are varying degrees of this intrusion, but if a person being proselytised is happy and comfortable in their non-Christian beliefs, the inability of these die-hard Christians to accept "NO" for an answer, regardless of the degree of politeness in which the "NO" is given, the ability to refrain from violence can be stretched almost to breaking point!

The trouble - as ever with monotheism - is that the Christian and Islamic scriptures demand it. The OT is content to say that YHWH is a jealous god (implying the existence of others) but there's no explicit command to proselytise, which is why in the main Jews haven't and dont. (Quite the opposite in fact - there's a tradition that a rabbi should turn away a would-be convert three times, to test their sincerity). Christianity however not only says that nobody gets to God but via Jesus, but that Christians are ordered to share the gospel with everyone.

Unfortunately not realising that it's sharing of the same order as sharing a fart in a lift - it may make you feel better, but nobody else wants to smell your shit.

[Brownie]

I'm not sure that people now think proselytising is considered to be the thing to do now, Shaker, amongst Christians.  (I can't speak for Muslims but there is tremendous variation in Islam, some would, some wouldn't.  I've certainly never been evangelised by a Muslim and have known many.)

The evangelical fervor of earlier times - ie The Great Commission - is only found in the evangelical churches and even they vary in intensity.   Let's face it, if people find it a turn off, it isn't effective so there's no point.  There is also more sensitivity to the individual journeys of others - and more awareness of, and interest in, non-Christian religions.

However, forums are an exception - we will always encounter evangelism on the internet!  This place is mild compared to some that I encountered in the past where I, and others, were frequently called "Not proper Christians" or even "Heretics".  Didn't bother me much, my choice whether or not to log to such forums and I'm capable of ignoring posts.

My purpose in being a part of a religious discussion forum has always been to engage with others who find the many subjects interesting, to share and to learn, not to push any particular pov onto someone else.

[Shaker]

I'm not sure that people now think proselytising is considered to be the thing to do now, Shaker, amongst Christians.

You may well be right; but in that case, isn't that at the expense of ignoring the great commission?

The evangelical fervor of earlier times - ie The Great Commission - is only found in the evangelical churches and even they vary in intensity.   Let's face it, if people find it a turn off, it isn't effective so there's no point.  There is also more sensitivity to the individual journeys of others - and more awareness of, and interest in, non-Christian religions.

You say that the GC is evangelical fervour of earlier times - isn't it an integral part of Christianity and what Christianity is supposed to be about/for?

[Brownie]

Not in my opinion, Shaker.  If people are interested and ask, that's fine, but it is intrusive and - sometimes - insulting if they aren't though I will say it is never intended to offend.

Churches occasionally send out a leaflet to people in a neighbourhood/parish, giving details of what goes on and offering an invitation but any more than that is over the top.

There are also interfaith groups that meet up, rather as we do only in person, to share and learn.

Naturally we will encounter people from time to time (& often on the 'net), who feel it is their duty to 'warn' and 'save' but they are few and far between.  However, as you know, I don't believe everyone who isn't a Christian is doomed and consider that to be an arrogant attitude.

There is also the fact that some of us have been quite damaged by experiences with church or 'religious' people, usually when they were young but sometimes as mature adults.  So sensitivity is needed.

However that doesn't mean anyone has to compromise with their own beliefs and, where appropriate, it seems quite in order to state what you believe and be prepared to say why.  Then leave it.

These are merely my opinions though, Shaker;  I know there are fellow posters who feel the same as I but a few who disagree.

Just to add, my views come from experience - both myself and seeing others subjected to intense proselytising from single minded, glasses eyed individuals, even at work which would not be allowed now - and was outraged.

[Jack Knave]

On the forum I don't see it as an issue - whilst it's not precisely what I come here for, it's an understandable position on the range of responses to the general topic, and we're coming here to discuss these sorts of issues and areas. It's when religion gets pressed on people in everyday life that I take umbrage - my local area, for instance, has two infant/junior schools, one of which is Catholic and the other C of E. How do you avoid religious themes being pressed upon your children in such a situation?

I have to say, if all someone is doing is preaching to you, violence isn't necessary. Threats of eternal hellfire and damnation have the same effect on me as warnings I'm about to step in unicorn-poo. It's when it's being inflicted on those without the capacity to frame a coherent rebuttal (i.e. chidren, the mentally challenged) or when it's being used as justification (or, worse, motivation with pathetic excuses as justification) for laws that limit people's lives and freedoms that we start to get real problems.

O.

What colour is it? So I know what to avoid.

[Hope]

The OT is content to say that YHWH is a jealous god (implying the existence of others) but there's no explicit command to proselytise, which is why in the main Jews haven't and dont

Ironically, there are several instructions by God to the Jews to act as witnesses to him amongst the nations amongst whom they lived.  So, to say that 'there's no explicit command' as you do Shaker, is to misrepresent the Old Testament.

The fact that the Jews tended (and still tend) not to proselytise was because some influential religious leaders sought to keep the truth of God (as they understood it) to themselves, in direct contraversion of Scriptural instructions.

... but that Christians are ordered to share the gospel with everyone.

Yet nowhere in the Biublical record is there an instruction to impose one's belief (though I am fully aware that, like some others, Christians can do so).  The interesting thing is that we are instructed to be ready to give an expalantion of our faith - which implies an initial question from someone.

The problem with a forum such as this is that anyone can be thought to be imposing their worldview or understanding on others, simply because of the nature of debate.

[Shaker]

Yet nowhere in the Biublical record is there an instruction to impose one's belief (though I am fully aware that, like some others, Christians can do so).  The interesting thing is that we are instructed to be ready to give an expalantion of our faith - which implies an initial question from someone.

The problem with a forum such as this is that anyone can be thought to be imposing their worldview or understanding on others, simply because of the nature of debate.

"Impose" how? Owlswing is Wiccan, and he doesn't. Gabriella is Muslim and she doesn't.

[Owlswing]

Yet nowhere in the Biublical record is there an instruction to impose one's belief (though I am fully aware that, like some others, Christians can do so).  The interesting thing is that we are instructed to be ready to give an expalantion of our faith - which implies an initial question from someone.

The problem with a forum such as this is that anyone can be thought to be imposing their worldview or understanding on others, simply because of the nature of debate.

Another wriggle from the Forum's belly dancing champion! Anything can be said if it makes Christianity acceptable or in an attempt to refute negative comments by non-Christians!