Author Topic: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer  (Read 37433 times)

Sassy

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #150 on: January 07, 2017, 01:46:04 AM »
I may not share pagan beliefs, though I respect those who do. That's probably an Egyptology thing again - I came across 'Omm Sety' many years ago. She claimed to have lived as a priestess in the stunning temple of Abydos at the time of Seti I., and even in her present life, was a devotee of Amun-re and Osiris. She could have been dismissed as a crank, were it not for her very detailed knowledge of the court in late dyn XVIII and early dyn XIX Egypt - and the undeniable facts that she was able to show the location of buildings and statues which had not, at that time, been excavated. When I was at Abdju (Abydos) in 1980, I was less than a hundred yards from the shack in which she lived, but, as her health was very poor and in decline, we were advised not to disturb her. She died shortly afterward. Renowned and scholarly archaeologists respected her knowledge and skill as a draughtswoman, and valued her insights, which added to the sum of detail of that period. I wish I'd met her.

Your respect them all the way to hell. Do you think God respects you for condoning the worship of idols and false gods? Truth is, she like the girl who followed Paul.

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16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:

17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.

18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,

A spirit of divination probably told her what she repeated.

I suppose it is a lie when he says Hebrews 9:27. King James Version
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

The woman could not have lived before. Therefore you are just showing that you are out to please men not God. Being an ear tickler...

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Brownie

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #151 on: January 07, 2017, 09:41:54 AM »
What Anchorman said was:   

I may not share pagan beliefs, though I respect those who do.

So he respects people regardless of their beliefs, but not their beliefs.  I would have thought that was obvious.

We can't judge who is going to Hell, whatever that is, for goodness sakes.
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Anchorman

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #152 on: January 07, 2017, 10:14:16 AM »
Apparently, Brownie, some are under the mistaken impression that we CAN, in fact, judge - and they seem to be apropriating power to themselves which is God's alone. The One I call LORD and God told those who follow Him to be 'in the world, but not of the world'. We can respect people as individuals (If we are Christian, we dare do no less), and respect their faith/non faith stance, whilst arguing, with respect, against it. We are told to be light and salt in the world.....not vitriol and vinegar.
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Brownie

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #153 on: January 07, 2017, 11:03:39 AM »
Yes!!!

It's not "ear tickling" to show a little respect for our fellow man and it is extremely insular to be cordial only with people of like mind.

More to the point, this is a Religion and Ethics forum, not an exclusively Christian forum, so everyone is welcome and if that doesn't suit, no-one is obliged to join in.

There are exclusively Christian forums.  People have violent arguments on those too.  (Cyber violence only of course, not sticks and stones.)
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Shaker

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #154 on: January 07, 2017, 11:09:38 AM »
There are exclusively Christian forums. People have violent arguments on those too. (Cyber violence only of course, not sticks and stones.)
Well that's a welcome improvement  ;)
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Brownie

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Sassy

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #156 on: January 07, 2017, 11:40:14 AM »
It is no surprising that MANY BELIEVERS do not act as if they believe in God or his word.
Nor do they show any real empathy for those being lost because the Christian condone false beliefs rather than tell the truth.

Christ warns when he says:-

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John 8:44-45 (NIV) "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire... When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!"

No one wants to believe the truth...

1 Samuel 15:23King James Version (KJV)

23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

Psalm 107:11King James Version (KJV)

11 Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High:


In accepting or condoning beliefs contrary to the teachings of God in his word you rebel against God and do not uphold his truth.

Nowhere in the bible does it teach a lover of truth accepts or condones that which they know to be false.

Eros and agape love. Eros the first resolves to please man and for self seeking purpose.
But agape first resolves of selfless nature to seek that which is from God and ultimately the best for all mankind through love.

Is isn't seeking to please self and mankind. Agape love is seeking the best for God and All, all the time. Christ displayed that love whilst mankind still sinners and unrepentant he died for them to the Glory of God and the salvation of all. It mattered not what they had done he chose to give us all the chance to be saved. The way and the truth is Jesus Christ.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Outrider

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #157 on: January 07, 2017, 11:43:03 AM »
Starbursts, dear boy, Starbursts....
Sign of the times, innit?

No-one's seen a unicorn in a long time, and they changed the name... Coinkydink?

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

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Outrider

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #158 on: January 07, 2017, 11:45:02 AM »
As usual, unfounded allegations. I know the God who created the very things that give existence to the things paganism based on. But the things created have no power of themselves.

If that's the case, why is there evidence of pagan cultures from before the big-boy's book of Jewish fairy-tales was written?

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May be you could research and use logic to reason why I know the things you cannot even stumble over...

Hello, Ms. Pot? This is the kettle, I'd like to discuss your extremely high melanin count, if you've a few moments?

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Brownie

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #159 on: January 07, 2017, 11:46:28 AM »
No-one's seen a unicorn in a long time, and they changed the name... Coinkydink?

O.

I had to look that up.   Oooh you are awful! 
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Anchorman

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #160 on: January 07, 2017, 11:48:05 AM »
I know a unicorn called Snickers.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Brownie

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #161 on: January 07, 2017, 11:53:23 AM »
He could do a marathon gallop.
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Sassy

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #162 on: January 07, 2017, 12:00:53 PM »
If that's the case, why is there evidence of pagan cultures from before the big-boy's book of Jewish fairy-tales was written?

What evidence?  There is no books before the first written.
When was the first books written?
Pagan cultures are assumed NOT proved.
You see the pagans after Christ came decided to claim as much as they could changing dates and times... Oh do you see that there...Even the Roman Catholic Church set up much later than the Church established by Christ thought their pagan belief the black madonna and child could be incorporated the Jewish Messianic belief. Which they did very cleverly. But the truth is that a SON not a woman would be the messiah.

I understand you are unhappy but only the real God and his people throughout history have been the example of truth and God present with man. He kept his promises but that which creates and that which is created are not one and the same.
God and his creation the latter being the basis of paganism show God and his people go way back before any pagan beliefs.  In the garden was Satan the Serpent. Where do you think he has been all these thousands of years? The Father of all lies leading men into all lies.
But the truth stands forever and eventually the old will pass and God bring in the new.
It matters not what we personally believe. The creator is the only one who matters.

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Hello, Ms. Pot? This is the kettle, I'd like to discuss your extremely high melanin count, if you've a few moments?

O.

But you haven't even the basic knowledge of the Pot or it's usefulness to be able to discuss
these things. You see a pot has many uses a kettle only one.
Paganism is a one horse show. It never enters the race when it comes to God and his truth.
For it is the created not the creator.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Jack Knave

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #163 on: January 07, 2017, 01:01:27 PM »

Made to make your mouth water!

Does this date me?
It sure dates me!!!

Owlswing

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #164 on: January 07, 2017, 02:57:03 PM »
As usual, unfounded allegations. I know the God who created the very things that give existence to the things paganism based on. But the things created have no power of themselves.
May be you could research and use logic to reason why I know the things you cannot even stumble over...

In fact why pretend you know anything about paganism when it is as dead as the gods and the spells it creates when the hand/finger of the living God is present. Even Pharaohs men knew when they were beaten. Because there is no power greater than the living gods.
We do not learn these things of ourselves or from our own wisdom the glory belongs to God.

I could not have asked for a better demonstration of your overwhelming pig-ignorance of Paganism!

Condemned out of your own mouth!
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Anchorman

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #165 on: January 07, 2017, 04:17:15 PM »
What evidence?  There is no books before the first written.
When was the first books written?
Pagan cultures are assumed NOT proved.
You see the pagans after Christ came decided to claim as much as they could changing dates and times... Oh do you see that there...Even the Roman Catholic Church set up much later than the Church established by Christ thought their pagan belief the black madonna and child could be incorporated the Jewish Messianic belief. Which they did very cleverly. But the truth is that a SON not a woman would be the messiah.

I understand you are unhappy but only the real God and his people throughout history have been the example of truth and God present with man. He kept his promises but that which creates and that which is created are not one and the same.
God and his creation the latter being the basis of paganism show God and his people go way back before any pagan beliefs.  In the garden was Satan the Serpent. Where do you think he has been all these thousands of years? The Father of all lies leading men into all lies.
But the truth stands forever and eventually the old will pass and God bring in the new.
It matters not what we personally believe. The creator is the only one who matters.

But you haven't even the basic knowledge of the Pot or it's usefulness to be able to discuss
these things. You see a pot has many uses a kettle only one.
Paganism is a one horse show. It never enters the race when it comes to God and his truth.
For it is the created not the creator.







Oh, dear.....
Where to start?
Owl, if I get stuck in here, your thread will be more off the rails than a British rail sarnie.....

"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Owlswing

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #166 on: January 07, 2017, 05:57:49 PM »

Oh, dear.....
Where to start?
Owl, if I get stuck in here, your thread will be more off the rails than a British rail sarnie.....


I  feel your pain, friend Anchorman!

You, from your posts, seem to understand where I am coming from in my dismissl of Sassy's, and others, i dea of what the words "faith" and belief" men in this context.

I have given up trying to talk sense when confronted with this kind of religious blindness and I really really MUST stop allowing myself to be baited into trying, yet again, to "discuss" my beliefs with such as Sassy and Hope.

You, at least, are prepared to dismiss my non-Christianity whilst not dismissing Paganism.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

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Hope

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #167 on: January 07, 2017, 06:35:52 PM »
Hope, I was talking about people of non-Christian faith, not those of no faith who do, regularly describe us as what you said and ridicule our beliefs.

('Anchor and Hope'  sounds like a pub.)
I'm aware that you were referring to such people, and I can think of some who are no better than those of no-faith.

I was only re-reading an article by a Hindu journalist published in the Kathmandu Post paper back in 1999 the other day, entitled 'Profane Proselytizing'.  I'm not sure what the current Nepalese Government definition of proselytizing is, but during the 1990s and early 2000s it was 'enticement to convert through the offer of physical or economic gain'.  Since no self-respecting Nepalese Christian would do such things - let alone being in a financial position to do so, the various attempts by the police to have people found guilty of this never succeeded.  One or two ex-pats were found guilty, though on extremely tenuous grounds, such as they offered a beggar a cup of coffee rather than money, but even they came from one of 2 or 3 groups that had, in the past, been slung out of Nepal for publishing material that enabled the less-well-off in society to learn to read and write and better themselves - not a single bit oif the material even mentioned Jesus and/or Christ and so who started at a disadvantage!!

The journo referred to above tried to make out that this was all Christians ever did in Nepal - and ironically, a different person, a devoted Hindu and a doctor, wrote a scathing letter in response - published a day or two later (but massively edited) pointing out that for the previous 45 years Christians of a variety of nationalities had been working in Nepal's health, education, economic and other fields improving the services for all. 

Since we have been back in the UK, I have seen a number of 'other faith' posters, on various internet forums, denugrate and ridicule the Christian faith.

Re the pub sign, surely it would be better as the Anchor of Hope?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 06:37:53 PM by Hope »
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Anchorman

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #168 on: January 07, 2017, 06:51:50 PM »
Sass; Can I point out that pagan religion evolved in diverse cultures from at least 10, 000 BC? The first documents - written in stone and clay tablets - which mention belief systems fdate from c3200 in both Egypt and what is now Mesopotamia. The first mention of YHWH which is recorded in history is again in stone - dating from around 1370 BC. Do the maths. This is not to denegrate the faith I, and presumably you, hold - simply stating fact - fact borne by evidence, which I am more than willing to provide should you ask.
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Brownie

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #169 on: January 07, 2017, 07:59:36 PM »
Hope and Sassy are like chalk and cheese!

Owlswing, you're right to want to ignore, because it does no good to do otherwise.  (Though there is a saying that it is better to be beaten than ignored.....dunno about that.) 

The thread will continue - there may be Marathon Starbursts of brilliant or humourous diversions but no bad temper. 

---

Hope, just seen your post;  I was merely talking about people on here, not anyone I've read about.  For example, I've never seen Gabriella or Sririam posting anything rude to Christians.

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Hope

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #170 on: January 08, 2017, 09:41:40 AM »
You, at least, are prepared to dismiss my non-Christianity whilst not dismissing Paganism.
Why would anyone dismiss paganism (though the term can have so many different meanings as to make it hard to pin down), Owl?  After all, the worship of Asher or Marduk (both Mesopotamian gods) is labelled 'pagan' no more or less than the form you practise.  It is precisely this thinking that encourages me to suggest that non-christian faiths are - for want of a more precise term - flawed or incomplete faiths.  They tend, from what my research shows, to worship creation rather than the Creator.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2017, 09:44:29 AM by Hope »
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Shaker

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #171 on: January 08, 2017, 11:14:32 AM »
Why would anyone dismiss paganism (though the term can have so many different meanings as to make it hard to pin down), Owl?  After all, the worship of Asher or Marduk (both Mesopotamian gods) is labelled 'pagan' no more or less than the form you practise.
Except that - with the possible exception of a very, very small number of people - those pagan traditions are extinct, whereas that of Owl is very much alive and kicking. Indeed, possibly even growing - Owl may know some figures here*. Certainly worship of the Mesopotamian gods was pagan, but as that tradition is extinct it's of interest only to academic historians, whereas there are numerous strands of paganism now which are living traditions with large numbers of adherents. That's why there's a distinction drawn between paleopaganism and neopaganism - the latter is alive and very well indeed, thank you very much.
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It is precisely this thinking that encourages me to suggest that non-christian faiths are - for want of a more precise term - flawed or incomplete faiths.
Well of course, you're bound to say that. It's a rival 'brand' as it were. Nevertheless, you haven't explained the chain of reasoning (using the word loosely) that leads you to the conclusion that any pagan tradition is flawed or incomplete. If a religious tradition/path is flawed, what would a flawless version look like? If it's incomplete, what would a complete version be? It wouldn't happen to look just like ... your own religion by any chance, would it? Wouldn't that be an incredible coincidence!

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They tend, from what my research shows, to worship creation rather than the Creator.
Worshipping what definitely exists over something never shown by anyone, anywhere, ever to exist? Seems reasonable enough to me - liking real things as I do and seeing no need or rationale for positing a creator. Especially when the thing worshipped is, entirely literally and non-metaphorically, our creator and sustainer.

When you're hungry, a real sandwich is of more value than a highly improbable and implausible sandwich predicated on some woefully bad arguments and shot through with fallacies, after all.

* A quick Google suggests that this is the case in the UK and USA.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2017, 02:42:28 PM by Shaker »
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Outrider

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #172 on: January 08, 2017, 11:21:19 AM »
What evidence?  There is no books before the first written.

And when pagan ritual sites from before written history have striking similarities to pagan ritual sites and practices that are documented by later cultures?

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When was the first books written?

A book, as in actual pages of something - around 2400 BC, papyrus sheafs in Egypt, although the content is now illegible. The earliest written information that we still have is from around 3200 BC. Compare that to the Old Testament, the earliest elements of which were probably after 800 BC.

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Pagan cultures are assumed NOT proved.

Pagan cultures are demonstrable fact. Early pagan cultures are presumed from their similarities to later, documented pagan cultures.

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You see the pagans after Christ came decided to claim as much as they could changing dates and times...

What about all the pagans that were around before Christ came? You know, for instance, the ones in Britain that the Romans documented during their occupation?

Quote
Oh do you see that there...Even the Roman Catholic Church set up much later than the Church established by Christ thought their pagan belief the black madonna and child could be incorporated the Jewish Messianic belief. Which they did very cleverly. But the truth is that a SON not a woman would be the messiah.

I like a well-rounded account - that you misinterpret Catholic doctrine as much as you misinterpret history is a sign of equal-opportunities ignorance.

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I understand you are unhappy but only the real God and his people throughout history have been the example of truth and God present with man. He kept his promises but that which creates and that which is created are not one and the same.

I'm not unhappy, far from it. Which 'real' god? Who are 'his people'? Isn't that the Jews?

Quote
God and his creation the latter being the basis of paganism show God and his people go way back before any pagan beliefs.

No, it shows that your beliefs make claims about the start of times, that doesn't make them any more valid than any of the other unfounded assertions.

Quote
In the garden was Satan the Serpent. Where do you think he has been all these thousands of years? The Father of all lies leading men into all lies.

I don't think he's been anywhere other than the imaginations of man and the words of books. Where do you think he's been, Sheffield?

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But the truth stands forever and eventually the old will pass and God bring in the new.

That's a possibility - do you have any evidence for that, other than a highly discredited work of ancient mythic fiction?

Quote
It matters not what we personally believe. The creator is the only one who matters.

At least half right, I'll grant you that.

Quote
But you haven't even the basic knowledge of the Pot or it's usefulness to be able to discuss these things. You see a pot has many uses a kettle only one.

You've never seen a steam engine?
 
Quote
Paganism is a one horse show. It never enters the race when it comes to God and his truth. For it is the created not the creator.

And how do you demonstrate that we are not the creator of both?

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Owlswing

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #173 on: January 08, 2017, 06:43:37 PM »

Outrider and Shaker

Thank you both, you clearly state what I have been trying to say for ages, but my emotions at the way in which my beliefs are denigrated get in the way. I have too short a fuse (as the Mods will testify) and thus your comments are truly appreciated.

I owe the pair of you a couple of beers/glasses of mead each!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Shaker

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Re: Witch/Pagan spell vs Christian prayer
« Reply #174 on: January 08, 2017, 07:05:52 PM »
You're on!

)○(

(I hope I got that right!).
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.