Author Topic: Faith & Belief: Induction vs Deduction  (Read 15203 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Faith & Belief: Induction vs Deduction
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2016, 05:13:05 PM »
Sword,

Quote
Faith leads to action. If I use an induction approach to determine if a bus can get me from place X to place Y, it is faith that leads me to go to the bus stop, wait for the bus, get on it and get off (hopefully!) at the other end.

You've been corrected already on dicking around with the ambiguity in the word "faith". "Faith" in the everyday sense is a reasoned expectation based on experience and logic - that your car will start in the morning for example. "Faith" in the religious sense on the other hand abjures reason and just states something to be the case - often with certainty - because it's a deeply held personal opinion. Unless that is you finally have a method to propose to investigate "faith" claims (religious sense)?
« Last Edit: September 26, 2016, 05:23:40 PM by bluehillside »
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SusanDoris

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Re: Faith & Belief: Induction vs Deduction
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2016, 06:03:56 PM »
Since this is the Christian Topic forum, why not start with the Christian faith? Pick any positive claim made by any Christian regarding their faith and apply an inductive process to it.
I seldom notice which forum a post is in and in any case respond to the content of a post.
I see from other posts to which I defer that most of the points you raised in the OP and here have been dealt with. However, I notice that you avoided the point about the lack of any new God/god/s since, well, about 2,000 years ago really. There have been actual people who have set up belief systems of various sorts, but none of these sects has included a new God/god.

Your example of getting on a bus does not work, as has been clearly explained.





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Hope

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Re: Faith & Belief: Induction vs Deduction
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2016, 06:06:17 PM »
You've been corrected already on dicking around with the ambiguity in the word "faith". "Faith" in the everyday sense is a reasoned expectation based on experience and logic - that your car will start in the morning for example. "Faith" in the religious sense on the other hand abjures reason and just states something to be the case - often with certainty - because it's a deeply held personal opinion. Unless that is you finally have a method to propose to investigate "faith" claims (religious sense)?
Do you have any evidence to show that this dichotomy in meaning exists, blue?  After all, as I've previously pointed out, faith in a religious sense is 'the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen'.  In other words exactly what I experience at 7:25 am each weekday morning when I arrive at our local railway station to catch the train to Cardiff.  I use my experience over some 6 months of travelling this way, yet accept that the train might well be 1 minute late (80-odd% of the time it has been since April) and occasionally it might be cancelled - or even just not turn up (which happened once back in May when two consecutive quarter-hourly trains simply didn't turn up - the information for which was only posted 10 or 11 minutes after each should have arrived!!).  I base my faith (both in trains - and other forms of public and private transport -  and Jesus) to a large extent on reasoned application of experience; my own and that of others. 
« Last Edit: September 26, 2016, 06:08:37 PM by Hope »
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Hope

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Re: Faith & Belief: Induction vs Deduction
« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2016, 06:07:19 PM »
I seldom notice which forum a post is in and in any case respond to the content of a post.
I see from other posts to which I defer that most of the points you raised in the OP and here have been dealt with. However, I notice that you avoided the point about the lack of any new God/god/s since, well, about 2,000 years ago really. There have been actual people who have set up belief systems of various sorts, but none of these sects has included a new God/god.

Your example of getting on a bus does not work, as has been clearly explained.
Having read the same posts, Susan, I'ds suggest that many of them are avoiding the issue - and not very effectively.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Faith & Belief: Induction vs Deduction
« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2016, 06:27:23 PM »
Hope,

Quote
Do you have any evidence to show that this dichotomy in meaning exists, blue?  After all, as I've previously pointed out, faith in a religious sense is 'the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen'.  In other words exactly what I experience at 7:25 am each weekday morning when I arrive at our local railway station to catch the train to Cardiff.  I use my experience over some 6 months of travelling this way, yet accept that the train might well be 1 minute late (80-odd% of the time it has been since April) and occasionally it might be cancelled - or even just not turn up (which happened once back in May when two consecutive quarter-hourly trains simply didn't turn up - the information for which was only posted 10 or 11 minutes after each should have arrived!!).  I base my faith (both in trains - and other forms of public and private transport -  and Jesus) to a large extent on reasoned application of experience; my own and that of others.

Seriously?

Seriously seriously?

Are you genuinely telling me that you don't see the definitional difference between your "faith" that your train will arrive on time - you know, that big, noisy material thing that generally does arrive on time and that you think to exist in part because of the inter-subjective experience of other people - and an immaterial, supernatural "God" that no two people can describe in identical terms unless they repeat the description they've been given from a "holy" text?

Seriously?   

Well then, can I introduce you to my faith in the hoped for and not seen leprechauns on the same basis then? 
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Gordon

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Re: Faith & Belief: Induction vs Deduction
« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2016, 06:32:52 PM »
Having read the same posts, Susan, I'ds suggest that many of them are avoiding the issue - and not very effectively.

I'f say it is more the case, based on this thread and his other posts, that Sword is trying to adopt an approach using philosophy when it seems he isn't quite as well-versed as he thinks he is.

His misunderstanding of Russell's 'Celestial Teapot' thought experiment, the way he sprays around terms such as 'truth' and 'prove', the woeful bus analogy and his use of fallacies in general confirm this - hence him being regularly corrected.

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Re: Faith & Belief: Induction vs Deduction
« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2016, 06:39:35 PM »
Do you have any evidence to show that this dichotomy in meaning exists, blue?  After all, as I've previously pointed out, faith in a religious sense is 'the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen'.  In other words exactly what I experience at 7:25 am each weekday morning when I arrive at our local railway station to catch the train to Cardiff.  I use my experience over some 6 months of travelling this way, yet accept that the train might well be 1 minute late (80-odd% of the time it has been since April) and occasionally it might be cancelled - or even just not turn up (which happened once back in May when two consecutive quarter-hourly trains simply didn't turn up - the information for which was only posted 10 or 11 minutes after each should have arrived!!).  I base my faith (both in trains - and other forms of public and private transport -  and Jesus) to a large extent on reasoned application of experience; my own and that of others.

In that case, since we're talking train arrangements being analogous to religious arrangements, perhaps you can provide the timetable for the next divine miracle (assuming it is on time and that the wrong type of leaves on the tracks won't delay it indefinitely).

jeremyp

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Re: Faith & Belief: Induction vs Deduction
« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2016, 06:57:44 PM »


I would suggest that a fundamental problem that occurs in many debates here is that a deductive approach is being used by some of the non-believers here whereas an inductive one is needed.
Nonsense. No doubt you have read some of the non-believers here claim that the scientific method is the only method that can tell us anything about the World we live in. (Some Christians have claimed there are other methods but have yet to disclose what they are.) Scientific experiment is fundamentally inductive in nature. In fact, deduction cannot tell you anything new by itself.

Quote
By then comparing it to religious belief, the implication is that religious belief is also made up. Can you see the deductive process at work here?
No. Russel's teapot is an analogy. It's meant to illustrate the flaws in the negative proof argument. Nobody claims that you can deduce "God does not exist" from Russel's teapot. That's a straw man argument, you are using.
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jeremyp

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Re: Faith & Belief: Induction vs Deduction
« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2016, 07:00:14 PM »
Do you have any evidence to show that this dichotomy in meaning exists, blue?  After all, as I've previously pointed out, faith in a religious sense is 'the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen'.  In other words exactly what I experience at 7:25 am each weekday morning when I arrive at our local railway station to catch the train to Cardiff.  I use my experience over some 6 months of travelling this way, yet accept that the train might well be 1 minute late (80-odd% of the time it has been since April) and occasionally it might be cancelled - or even just not turn up (which happened once back in May when two consecutive quarter-hourly trains simply didn't turn up - the information for which was only posted 10 or 11 minutes after each should have arrived!!).  I base my faith (both in trains - and other forms of public and private transport -  and Jesus) to a large extent on reasoned application of experience; my own and that of others.

How many times have you experienced death and finding out you are alive after it? Your faith in God isn't based on experience.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Faith & Belief: Induction vs Deduction
« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2016, 07:27:19 PM »
How many times have you experienced death and finding out you are alive after it? Your faith in God isn't based on experience.
But a relationship doesn't start after death. God in Christ offers a relationship now.

What we need to ask ourselves is............. if and why that is our problem with God.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Faith & Belief: Induction vs Deduction
« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2016, 07:38:02 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
But a relationship doesn't start after death. God in Christ offers a relationship now.

So you assert. Nice use of the reification fallacy by the way.

Quote
What we need to ask ourselves is............. if and why that is our problem with God.

Surely what we need to ask ourselves first is why you would think any of the above to be true.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Faith & Belief: Induction vs Deduction
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2016, 07:42:19 PM »
In that case, since we're talking train arrangements being analogous to religious arrangements, perhaps you can provide the timetable for the next divine miracle (assuming it is on time and that the wrong type of leaves on the tracks won't delay it indefinitely).
They don't happen in a mechanistic fashion like that.....That's why they are called miracles.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Faith & Belief: Induction vs Deduction
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2016, 07:43:02 PM »
They don't happen in a mechanistic fashion like that.....That's why they are called miracles.
How do you tell they happen? And just to note that in saying that you're off pissing on Sword's analogy.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Faith & Belief: Induction vs Deduction
« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2016, 07:52:13 PM »
How do you tell they happen? And just to note that in saying that you're off pissing on Sword's analogy.
The universe being is a miracle which flouts cause and effect. That can only happen once because it is now here.

jeremyp

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Re: Faith & Belief: Induction vs Deduction
« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2016, 07:54:50 PM »
But a relationship doesn't start after death. God in Christ offers a relationship now.
So?

How does that increase your experience of life after death?
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Faith & Belief: Induction vs Deduction
« Reply #40 on: September 26, 2016, 07:56:10 PM »
Vlad,

So you assert. Nice use of the reification fallacy by the way.

.....And what is being reified Bluebottle?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Faith & Belief: Induction vs Deduction
« Reply #41 on: September 27, 2016, 09:12:08 AM »
Vlad,

Quote
.....And what is being reified Bluebottle?

"God in Christ offers a relationship now."

You'll need to demonstrate that before moving on to the questions it would supposedly make us ask.
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Sebastian Toe

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Re: Faith & Belief: Induction vs Deduction
« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2016, 12:43:36 PM »
Since this is the Christian Topic forum, why not start with the Christian faith? Pick any positive claim made by any Christian regarding their faith and apply an inductive process to it.


Two positive claims made by Christians on this very board.

1. Jesus is God
2. Jesus is not God.

Go induct those....see what you come up with, then tell the loser(s) that they are wrong.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Faith & Belief: Induction vs Deduction
« Reply #43 on: September 27, 2016, 12:45:35 PM »
The universe being is a miracle which flouts cause and effect. That can only happen once because it is now here.
I'm going to combine my response to this with a partial reply to the OP. The reason for combining and the reply bring only the first part of an answer is because I think there is an internet rule to be instituted which is the more wrong something is in a small number of words, the longer the answer will be to unpack it and point out the problems, or in short if something is only 1% correct, it will take 99 times the amount of writing to point out why.

So let's break this down to that for Vlad, the definition of a miracle based his statement above is something that flouts cause and effect and only happens once. I will deal with these separately, and then link to the part coverage of the OP.

For something to  'flout cause and effect', the first problem is that linguistically this means that a miracle in Vlad's view is something that happens at random. If there is no cause, then there is no supernatural claim. So we have to help Vlad a little here and insert that it flouts a natural cause and effect. This causes problems in that we haven't established either that cause and effect are objectively true or that any causes are natural.

To understand the problem of cause and effect not being objective, we need to understand that it us a pattern seen from a subjective point of view, and then validated inter subjectively. It nay be that we are all in the matrix or indeed there is only one thing thinking (the problem of hard solipsism). Further even if we exclude these sort of thought experiments, the idea of cause and effect is based on our viewpoint and induction. We examine them as if it is a proven 'kaw' when it is simply an inductively derived observation.


This takes us on to ther separation of causes into two types, natural ones which Vlad seems to think we have proved, and non natural ones which he thinks sonehow flout the idea of cause and effect. The natural causes that we use to explain are based not upon objective proof of the cause and effect link but a basic assumption of how we investigate the external world. This is that assumption that we can investigate such a world as if it is consistent and that if we see something that we can ascribe a cause to consistently then whatever we observe within that method of naturalism is the cause.  Those causes though could all be non natural, some non natural, or it could change from minute to minute. For let's remember, the rule of cause and effect is flouted by these non natural causes.


So let's move on to Vlad's second pillar of miracles that something only happens once. When he raised this previously I pointed out that everything in our experience only happens once. It might have similarities, I may be go to the loo a few tines a day as will billions of others but each of these are unique happenings spatially and temporally. In that case there is the possibility of ascribing the view that indeed everything could be miraculous, indeed if this is a deity with the omnus, then arguably it must be because this will be the vest of all possible universes, though one where free will cannot exist - but since that doesn't seem to what Vlad is saying we will leave such discussions for some other time.


Nio, again as with Vlad's first pillar, we may need to unpack this to make much sense and the best that I can make out if it us that thus us some special category of event which by its nature happens only once, and has no similarity with any other event. Now what this presents is a case of Vlad being generous with his urine to out out the bonfires of such as Hope and Alan Burns who make miracle claims for people getting better from illness, and finding contact lens; events which have multiple similar events.

Tgaty, of course, doesn't make Vlad wrong but it also presents problems for some of the more significant, pace Alan Burn's contact lens,  miracles claimed in Christianity - resurrection. Since there are multiple claims of resurrections, then by it happening more than once and given that they are not unique in the way Vlad wants to posit for the universe, they too are not miracles by this approach.

That leaves us with the universe then starting. Now even if none if such hypotheses as multiverses, prior universes, steady state universe, expanding and contracting universes are actually true, Vlad would need to disprove them to make the claim that this universe is unique in such a way to satisfy his second miracle pillar.

Even were he to do that, the singularity of the incident at some time cannot be used to extrapolate that it us always going to be unique, the old problem of induction that keeps a coming.

And worse, the pillar is simply an assertion that if something only happened once that it is somehow non natural, it isn't method.


So to try and lunk this back to the OP. The problem of induction haunts Vlad's position but it's all ignored in the IO too. Induction rests on the assumption that allow us to say x causes y, and we investigate that on the basis of probability. It rests on an assumption that inter subjectivity is useful and for the sake of its own consistency we ignore hard solipsism. Given that we cannot use it to rule out events that contradict the rules we derive, so we cannot use it to state anything about the actual causes. It does not rule out non natural causes, indeed as already mentioned by the way we use it it simply assumes natural causes.


And that I think is enough for this episode of 'Thinking with Mother'

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Faith & Belief: Induction vs Deduction
« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2016, 01:01:04 PM »
NS,

Quote
I'm going to combine my response to this with a partial reply to the OP....

Thanks for posting. Just to add that our Vlad also makes the mistake of thinking that a phenomenon that's not amenable to the tools of science - eg, we don't have a big enough telescope - must also thereby be inherently not amenable to the methods of science - eg falsifiability, and so must therefore be outside of cause and effect in character (ie, "supernatural"). 
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Jack Knave

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Re: Faith & Belief: Induction vs Deduction
« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2016, 08:53:25 PM »
Signing in.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Faith & Belief: Induction vs Deduction
« Reply #46 on: September 27, 2016, 08:53:53 PM »
I'm going to combine my response to this with a partial reply to the OP. The reason for combining and the reply bring only the first part of an answer is because I think there is an internet rule to be instituted which is the more wrong something is in a small number of words, the longer the answer will be to unpack it and point out the problems, or in short if something is only 1% correct, it will take 99 times the amount of writing to point out why.

So let's break this down to that for Vlad, the definition of a miracle based his statement above is something that flouts cause and effect and only happens once. I will deal with these separately, and then link to the part coverage of the OP.

For something to  'flout cause and effect', the first problem is that linguistically this means that a miracle in Vlad's view is something that happens at random. If there is no cause, then there is no supernatural claim. So we have to help Vlad a little here and insert that it flouts a natural cause and effect. This causes problems in that we haven't established either that cause and effect are objectively true or that any causes are natural.

To understand the problem of cause and effect not being objective, we need to understand that it us a pattern seen from a subjective point of view, and then validated inter subjectively. It nay be that we are all in the matrix or indeed there is only one thing thinking (the problem of hard solipsism). Further even if we exclude these sort of thought experiments, the idea of cause and effect is based on our viewpoint and induction. We examine them as if it is a proven 'kaw' when it is simply an inductively derived observation.


This takes us on to ther separation of causes into two types, natural ones which Vlad seems to think we have proved, and non natural ones which he thinks sonehow flout the idea of cause and effect. The natural causes that we use to explain are based not upon objective proof of the cause and effect link but a basic assumption of how we investigate the external world. This is that assumption that we can investigate such a world as if it is consistent and that if we see something that we can ascribe a cause to consistently then whatever we observe within that method of naturalism is the cause.  Those causes though could all be non natural, some non natural, or it could change from minute to minute. For let's remember, the rule of cause and effect is flouted by these non natural causes.


So let's move on to Vlad's second pillar of miracles that something only happens once. When he raised this previously I pointed out that everything in our experience only happens once. It might have similarities, I may be go to the loo a few tines a day as will billions of others but each of these are unique happenings spatially and temporally. In that case there is the possibility of ascribing the view that indeed everything could be miraculous, indeed if this is a deity with the omnus, then arguably it must be because this will be the vest of all possible universes, though one where free will cannot exist - but since that doesn't seem to what Vlad is saying we will leave such discussions for some other time.


Nio, again as with Vlad's first pillar, we may need to unpack this to make much sense and the best that I can make out if it us that thus us some special category of event which by its nature happens only once, and has no similarity with any other event. Now what this presents is a case of Vlad being generous with his urine to out out the bonfires of such as Hope and Alan Burns who make miracle claims for people getting better from illness, and finding contact lens; events which have multiple similar events.

Tgaty, of course, doesn't make Vlad wrong but it also presents problems for some of the more significant, pace Alan Burn's contact lens,  miracles claimed in Christianity - resurrection. Since there are multiple claims of resurrections, then by it happening more than once and given that they are not unique in the way Vlad wants to posit for the universe, they too are not miracles by this approach.

That leaves us with the universe then starting. Now even if none if such hypotheses as multiverses, prior universes, steady state universe, expanding and contracting universes are actually true, Vlad would need to disprove them to make the claim that this universe is unique in such a way to satisfy his second miracle pillar.

Even were he to do that, the singularity of the incident at some time cannot be used to extrapolate that it us always going to be unique, the old problem of induction that keeps a coming.

And worse, the pillar is simply an assertion that if something only happened once that it is somehow non natural, it isn't method.


So to try and lunk this back to the OP. The problem of induction haunts Vlad's position but it's all ignored in the IO too. Induction rests on the assumption that allow us to say x causes y, and we investigate that on the basis of probability. It rests on an assumption that inter subjectivity is useful and for the sake of its own consistency we ignore hard solipsism. Given that we cannot use it to rule out events that contradict the rules we derive, so we cannot use it to state anything about the actual causes. It does not rule out non natural causes, indeed as already mentioned by the way we use it it simply assumes natural causes.


And that I think is enough for this episode of 'Thinking with Mother'
And one is touched by it's earnestness Sane.

However any reading of my contribution to the debate on the supernatural Debate board will show that whether the universe popped from nothing, has a creator, or is eternal all three are miraculous.

Secondly Sane you have a problem suggesting the universe(all there is) might not be all there is, that there can be another, that there can be that which also either popped out of nothing or is eternal.

Also the notion that universes pop up at random  is loaded in favour of multiple universes. There is and can be no evidence of randomness since randomness is a feature of a group of events nor evidence of other universes since that evidence would need to be part of this universe since it would be in this universe. Nearly  is making a cracking case for the possibility of God and cannot, if he believes his points are correct be a true atheist.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2016, 08:57:37 PM by Vlad and his ilk. »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Faith & Belief: Induction vs Deduction
« Reply #47 on: September 27, 2016, 09:00:01 PM »
NS,

Thanks for posting. Just to add that our Vlad also makes the mistake of thinking that a phenomenon that's not amenable to the tools of science - eg, we don't have a big enough telescope - must also thereby be inherently not amenable to the methods of science - eg falsifiability, and so must therefore be outside of cause and effect in character (ie, "supernatural").
I don't believe that at all.

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Re: Faith & Belief: Induction vs Deduction
« Reply #48 on: September 27, 2016, 09:16:43 PM »
And one is touched by it's earnestness Sane.

However any reading of my contribution to the debate on the supernatural Debate board will show that whether the universe popped from nothing, has a creator, or is eternal all three are miraculous.

Secondly Sane you have a problem suggesting the universe(all there is) might not be all there is, that there can be another, that there can be that which also either popped out of nothing or is eternal.

Also the notion that universes pop up at random  is loaded in favour of multiple universes. There is and can be no evidence of randomness since randomness is a feature of a group of events nor evidence of other universes since that evidence would need to be part of this universe since it would be in this universe. Nearly  is making a cracking case for the possibility of God and cannot, if he believes his points are correct be a true atheist.
whoosh

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Faith & Belief: Induction vs Deduction
« Reply #49 on: September 27, 2016, 09:19:56 PM »
whoosh
Ah, the sound of multiverses coming into existence....at random.