Pat Robertson and U S Evangelical Christianity show their ugliest of faces again

[Owlswing]

I'd still be here Swing........big yellow smiley.

Like I said, our luck ain't that good - you are the Colin Creevey of the R and E Forum.

[Sebastian Toe]

I'd still be here Swing........big yellow smiley.

But the only reason that you stay is to prevent the inevitable closure of the forum should you go.
That's correct isn't it?
You sentimental old fool you!

[Sassy]

You can always leave if you dont like it here!

OR..

You could take lessons on Christianity so you can make a positive contribution instead of negative remarks to members as the one above.

[Sebastian Toe]

OR..

You could take lessons on Christianity so you can make a positive contribution instead of negative remarks to members as the one above.

OR
'You' can take lessons in:

Humility
Writing English in a way that is understandable to normal humans
Reading for understanding
Humility
History
Politics
Humility

..I could go on but I've not got all day!

[Brownie]

That's because of a cruel and intellectually totalitarian secularism.

No, because we are generally less OTT.  Nothing cruel about that, on the contrary it's quite a kind trait!

[Nearly Sane]

No, because we are generally less OTT.  Nothing cruel about that, on the contrary it's quite a kind trait!

Who's we?

[Brownie]

The GBP.  Less OTT about religion than those over the pond.  Which I do not believe is a cruel attitude.

[Nearly Sane]

Moderator a number of posts discussing an individual poster have been removed as being off topic

[ippy]

Does anyone on this forum truly agree with this man's words and suggested actions?


http://churchandstate.org.uk/2016/09/pat-robertson-non-religious-children-should-be-beaten-until-they-respect-christian-beliefs/

Nothing new or unusual there Owl, just another religious nutter, are you really surprised?

ippy

[Owlswing]

Nothing new or unusual there Owl, just another religious nutter, are you really surprised?

ippy

Surprised? At the American's mixture of Christain Fundamentalism and their taste for violent retribution for anything that they see as a crime? A crime against their criminal law or the Christian law.

Regrettably no, I am not at all surprised. Disappointed that in the 21st century the country which deems itself to be the Leader of the Free World is still incapable of seeing the deficiencies in the results of following a bbok that is 2,00 years out of date.

The psycological results of violence to children as a form of discipline nd/or punishment are now so well and frequently documented that it would have percolated even through such numb-skulls as this idiot. The progression to using violence against anyone who they consider to be breaking their laws at an interntionl level seems inevitable and the consequences potentially catastrophic.

[Hope]

Regrettably no, I am not at all surprised. Disappointed that in the 21st century the country which deems itself to be the Leader of the Free World is still incapable of seeing the deficiencies in the results of following a bbok that is 2,00 years out of date.

So out of date Owl that the vast majority of what it teaches is only recently being re-enacted by modern society.

The psycological results of violence to children as a form of discipline nd/or punishment are now so well and frequently documented that it would have percolated even through such numb-skulls as this idiot. The progression to using violence against anyone who they consider to be breaking their laws at an interntionl level seems inevitable and the consequences potentially catastrophic.

Whilst the lack of 'violence' in a child's upbringing is equally negatively documented.  As humans we learn from pain - its a natural form of warning and discouragement.  Interestingly, there is no Biblical recommendation, let alone instruction that a parent should punish a child by thrashing them to the edge of death - nor is there anything instructing them to punish by psychological means - which can be just as damaging.  As for your escalating the issue to international politics in the way you have, it isn't just the Americans who fallen into this error.  Just about eery culture, at some point in their history, has done the same - and often at the point that they are the 'Leader of the World' - free or otherwise.

[Hope]

I don't have a problem with moderate Christians, even if I don't see it their way. It is the ones who try to frighten people into conversion who do my head in!

OK, Floo, since there is no Biblical instruction to "frighten people into conversion", would you agree that questioning such people's claims to be 'Christians' is in order?  Are we obliged to accept somebody's self-definition if their behaviour doesn't match up with the claims and expected behaviour of that claim?  This applies across the board, and not just in terms of religious belief.  Or is religious belief something so specific that all the normal benchmarks are obsolete?

[Nearly Sane]

OK, Floo, since there is no Biblical instruction to "frighten people into conversion", would you agree that questioning such people's claims to be 'Christians' is in order?  Are we obliged to accept somebody's self-definition if their behaviour doesn't match up with the claims and expected behaviour of that claim?  This applies across the board, and not just in terms of religious belief.  Or is religious belief something so specific that all the normal benchmarks are obsolete?

but what if they think you don't match up?

[ippy]

Surprised? At the American's mixture of Christain Fundamentalism and their taste for violent retribution for anything that they see as a crime? A crime against their criminal law or the Christian law.

Regrettably no, I am not at all surprised. Disappointed that in the 21st century the country which deems itself to be the Leader of the Free World is still incapable of seeing the deficiencies in the results of following a bbok that is 2,00 years out of date.

The psycological results of violence to children as a form of discipline nd/or punishment are now so well and frequently documented that it would have percolated even through such numb-skulls as this idiot. The progression to using violence against anyone who they consider to be breaking their laws at an interntionl level seems inevitable and the consequences potentially catastrophic.

Funny enough, about a year or two ago I heard that Denmark had far less recidivism from their ex-conns than we do here something like they had 30% reoffenders compared to the UK's 70% reoffenders and I heard recently, can't remember the figures, but Norway is giving the impression that they are rewarding their criminals for their handy work, and have even taken over from Denmark with their efforts at turning around criminals.

I have to admit my gut feelings when I hear about a whole load of criminal acts via the various media outlets, is to flog them hang them hang them up by there thumbs, lock them up and throw away the key etc depending on the crime, obviously this kind of thing doesn't work and the best option is to follow the most successful methods we can find and hopefully break the circle of criminal behaviour,  among these kinds of people no matter what our gut feelings might be. 

ippy   

[Nearly Sane]

Funny enough, about a year or two ago I heard that Denmark had far less recidivism from their ex-conns than we do here something like they had 30% reoffenders compared to the UK's 70% reoffenders and I heard recently, can't remember the figures, but Norway is giving the impression that they are rewarding their criminals for their handy work, and have even taken over from Denmark with their efforts at turning around criminals.

I have to admit my gut feelings when I hear about a whole load of criminal acts via the various media outlets, is to flog them hang them hang them up by there thumbs, lock them up and throw away the key etc depending on the crime, obviously this kind of thing doesn't work and the best option is to follow the most successful methods we can find and hopefully break the circle of criminal behaviour,  among these kinds of people no matter what our gut feelings might be. 

ippy

Article on Norway's prisons, and I agree with you that the crucial thing here is what works, not what feels right on an emotional level.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/why-norways-prison-system-is-so-successful-2014-12?r=US&IR=T

And further article on the Scandi model

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/09/why-scandinavian-prisons-are-superior/279949/

[Hope]

Sadly, successive British Governments have chosen to go for the harder, tougher options which research indicates don't really impact on re-offending, and various pilot projects that have shown promising resuylts in reducing re-offending have been ditched.

[Owlswing]

Sadly, successive British Governments have chosen to go for the harder, tougher options which research indicates don't really impact on re-offending, and various pilot projects that have shown promising resuylts in reducing re-offending have been ditched.

. . . harder, tougher options . . .

Are you joking? You must be. A while ago photos were published of a new prison opening in the UK - I wish I could rremember the details, date, location, etc - which looked more like a Butlins Holiday camp. The leisure facilities were desribed as 'top of the range and equiped to the highest possible standards then available' and the kitchens alone cost several millions to equip.

Recidivism in the country is rampamt for criminals have no fear of prison - people under 18, fine, it should be more like an educational establishment, but for offending adults . . .   

[Brownie]

Why is that, Hope?  Is it money?  It's obviously cheaper to just confine inmates to their cells - "bang up" - for long periods than employ specially trained people to help them rehabilitate.  Yet if other countries manage to do that, we surely can.  I particularly feel for the young offenders, in places like Feltham.

[Nearly Sane]

Are you joking? You must be. A while ago photos were published of a new prison opening in the UK - I wish I could rremember the details, date, location, etc - which looked more like a Butlins Holiday camp. The leisure facilities were desribed as 'top of the range and equiped to the highest possible standards then available' and the kitchens alone cost several millions to equip.

Recidivism in the country is rampamt for criminals have no fear of prison - people under 18, fine, it should be more like an educational establishment, but for offending adults . . .

except as is already covered on the thread, the Scandi model seems to work.

[Nearly Sane]

Why is that, Hope?  Is it money?  It's obviously cheaper to just confine inmates to their cells - "bang up" - for long periods than employ specially trained people to help them rehabilitate.  Yet if other countries manage to do that, we surely can.  I particularly feel for the young offenders, in places like Feltham.

ask Owlswing he seems to want to go down the harsher ineffective route

[Brownie]

Just a gut reaction, NS, understandable when it comes to violent offences.  However he did say he felt differently about young offenders.

The thing about modern prisons is they look like bright, shiny comprehensive schools with workshops, classrooms, gymnasia etc, but the prison service doesn't have the staff to enable the inmates to make full use of them.  It takes a lot of man/womanpower merely to escort groups from one part of a prison to another and then chaperone them.  So there is what seems like endless 'bang up'.  Demoralising for staff and prisoners.

[Nearly Sane]

Just a gut reaction, NS, understandable when it comes to violent offences.  However he did say he felt differently about young offenders.

The thing about modern prisons is they look like bright, shiny comprehensive schools with workshops, classrooms, gymnasia etc, but the prison service doesn't have the staff to enable the inmates to make full use of them.  It takes a lot of man/womanpower merely to escort groups from one part of a prison to another and then chaperone them.  So there is what sees like endless 'bang up'.  Demoralising for staff and prisoners.

Do they really look that good? didn't last time I was there.  Point is a more open approach such as the Scandi one works but Owlswing doesn't want that despite it working.

[Brownie]

I was thinking of Belmarsh which is, I suppose, the nearest to me.  That certainly does look good but the inmates refer to it as "The Hellhouse of South London" because the regime is so harsh compared to prisons such as the Scrubs.  However I'm no expert on prisons, NS and have never before heard of Point.   

Totally agree that the Scandi method you outline seems the right way, sensible and forward thinking.  However I understand why some people feel less sympathetic towards offenders even if I don't share their views.  For all we know, they could have been a victim of violent crime at one time and experience like that is bound to make them biased. 

Tbh I always tend to think that people, "Didn't really mean to do it", so would be useless working in a prison.  I just feel it's wrong to write people off and imagine how devastated I'd be if I was written off.  Let's face it, you don't have to commit a crime to be forgotten and discarded by society, could happen to any of us.

[Nearly Sane]

I was thinking of Belmarsh which is, I suppose, the nearest to me.  That certainly does look good but the inmates refer to it as "The Hellhouse of South London" because the regime is so harsh compared to prisons such as the Scrubs.  However I'm no expert on prisons, NS and have never before heard of Point.   

Totally agree that the Scandi method you outline seems the right way, sensible and forward thinking.  However I understand why some people feel less sympathetic towards offenders even if I don't share their views.  For all we know, they could have been a victim of violent crime at one time and experience like that is bound to make them biased. 

Tbh I always tend to think that people, "Didn't really mean to do it", so would be useless working in a prison.  I just feel it's wrong to write people off and imagine how devastated I'd be if I was written off.  Let's face it, you don't have to commit a crime to be forgotten and discarded by society, could happen to any of us.

we,  Ippy and I for once have covered the emotional issue. Surely the point is what works, not what people think against the evidence?

[floo]

OK, Floo, since there is no Biblical instruction to "frighten people into conversion", would you agree that questioning such people's claims to be 'Christians' is in order?  Are we obliged to accept somebody's self-definition if their behaviour doesn't match up with the claims and expected behaviour of that claim?  This applies across the board, and not just in terms of religious belief.  Or is religious belief something so specific that all the normal benchmarks are obsolete?

The 'born again' mob claim to be Christians, and they believe you will go to hell if you don't convert!