Pat Robertson and U S Evangelical Christianity show their ugliest of faces again

[Aruntraveller]

we,  Ippy and I for once have covered the emotional issue. Surely the point is what works, not what people think against the evidence?

Can I just reinforce this point.

We have for years now had governments of all colours getting tough on criminals whilst ignoring the fact that this does not work. A lock em up and forget them for x number of years is, if you think about it sensibly, never going to work. You are putting them into an institution where they are with other criminals and letting their minds ferment all sorts of weird thoughts about what they will do when they get outside - this will be reinforced by their peer group, in this case other criminals.

But again the attitude prevalent in these shores that we can learn nothing from Johnny Foreigner holds sway. We really are a desperately sad nation.

[Nearly Sane]

Not, of course, just Johnny Foreigner but I suspect that there might be experts involved in calculating recidivism rates! And we know all about experts!

[Brownie]

NS:  we,  Ippy and I for once have covered the emotional issue. Surely the point is what works, not what people think against the evidence?


Yes of course, I agree - and with what Trent said this morning.

People still have the right to an emotional response and are not going to be persuaded if we completely disregard them.

[Nearly Sane]

NS:  we,  Ippy and I for once have covered the emotional issue. Surely the point is what works, not what people think against the evidence?


Yes of course, I agree - and with what Trent said this morning.

People still have the right to an emotional response and are not going to be persuaded if we completely disregard them.

In what way were they being 'completely disregarded'? Ippy clearly expressed that he had the same emotional reaction.

[Aruntraveller]

NS:  we,  Ippy and I for once have covered the emotional issue. Surely the point is what works, not what people think against the evidence?


Yes of course, I agree - and with what Trent said this morning.

People still have the right to an emotional response and are not going to be persuaded if we completely disregard them.

Of course they have the right to an emotional response - no-one is saying they don't. But laws based purely on emotional responses are not always the best way forward. So the wish for retribution, vengeance etc is strong in some people  - this is in part why we have laws in the first place to stop the kind of vigilante activities that currently seem to be gaining traction.

As with so many things in this world the issue is a bit counterintuitive - yes we want to lock em up to keep ourselves and others safe - but actually what if the locking them up in the way we do is the very thing that is increasing the dangers to ourselves and others?

[Brownie]

I think you've missed my point, Trent.  I agree with what you say and believe our prisons should be more concerned with rehab than punishment.  I just feel that everyone's voice must be heard.  Anyway never mind.

[Aruntraveller]

I think you've missed my point, Trent.  I agree with what you say and believe our prisons should be more concerned with rehab than punishment.  I just feel that everyone's voice must be heard.  Anyway never mind.

I don't think we are disagreeing - it's just that those closest to the crime often feel the need for some kind of retribution / punishment that in the end serves no good purpose - if, as appears to be the case from evidence elsewhere, a much more 'rehab' focused approach is needed.

[Aruntraveller]

Just to add, that I have been thinking about this in the context of something that has happened recently to a husband of an old friend of mine - a case which I don't want to discuss here, but it has given me a number of sleepless nights over the mess that this person has got themselves into in relation to action taken by a vigilante group.

The rights and wrongs of locking people up versus the options of rehabilitation have preoccupied me more than they normally would do!

[Nearly Sane]

I think you've missed my point, Trent.  I agree with what you say and believe our prisons should be more concerned with rehab than punishment.  I just feel that everyone's voice must be heard.  Anyway never mind.

Not all opinions though are equally valid. Further I suspect a number of politicians pander to the emotional response for their own interests rather than actually believing them. The level of political debate around penal policy in this country is execrable in part because we don't look at what works.

[floo]

I think you've missed my point, Trent.  I agree with what you say and believe our prisons should be more concerned with rehab than punishment.  I just feel that everyone's voice must be heard.  Anyway never mind.

I think prisons should be there to punish criminals. The punishment should be stringent in the case of the most serious crimes. I also think that rehabilitation should be applied to those for whom it is thought would benefit from it. They should be psychologically tested to see if that is a possibility, so money isn't wasted on them.

[Brownie]

What do you mean by stringent punishment?   I presume you mean more than locking up prison inmates and making them work hard.

Punishment is administered by prison officers and having to dish it out that day after day must have a damaging effect on their psyche.  They would have to be the sort of people who can completely divorce themselves mentally from what they do or they might end up needing help themselves.  A sort of desensitisation.  There obviously are such people and they are trained how to leave work behind when they go home.  Getting the balance right can't be easy though.

Being a prison officer must be a very difficult job indeed - sometimes boring too because they spend ages just sitting and watching groups.  They also have to have eyes in the back of their heads and a degree of savvy when it comes to assessing character.

Specialising in the rehabilitation of offenders is, I would think, far more interesting and rewarding.  As has been said, it is a pity not more of this is done with success, unlike our Scandinavian neighbours.

[ippy]

I think prisons should be there to punish criminals. The punishment should be stringent in the case of the most serious crimes. I also think that rehabilitation should be applied to those for whom it is thought would benefit from it. They should be psychologically tested to see if that is a possibility, so money isn't wasted on them.

Floo, if you look at the long term aspect of reforming criminal behaviour; things like this will only improve over the long term, hopefully the reformed criminals will be less likely to pass on a positive  influence about criminal behaviour on to their families, their children, and that would only be one great benefit gained from reforming criminals, by reforming as many as is possible, there are many more benefits to be gained too.

You're not the only one that would like to wring their necks Floo, especially if it worked but unfortunately.?

My father was a London PC and I often heard him speak about the local criminal families, the children are brought up to see this kind of behaviour as the norm; do I need to say more? 

ippy

[Brownie]

ippy:  "...local criminal families, the children are brought up to see this kind of behaviour as the norm."

Indeed, it's very hard to change those attitudes which are inculcated from youth.
Very often people in prison, inmates, especially the younger ones, are fed up with their lot and want to live differently but when they leave, they go back to exactly the same environment with family and friends holding to criminal values, treating them like "Wusses" for wanting to change.  No wonder so many re-offend.

Rehabilitation has to continue after prison.

[floo]

Prison should be a place  to which nobody ever wishes to return, not a holiday camp!

[Aruntraveller]

Prison should be a place  to which nobody ever wishes to return, not a holiday camp!

Knee meet jerk.

[Nearly Sane]

Prison should be a place  to which nobody ever wishes to return, not a holiday camp!

Why are you unwilling to consider the evidence of what actually reduces recidivism?

[floo]

Why are you unwilling to consider the evidence of what actually reduces recidivism?

I would consider it is it isn't used instead of punishment, but running alongside it.

[Nearly Sane]

I would consider it is it isn't used instead of punishment, but running alongside it.

But it's the whole approach that seems to work better.

[Aruntraveller]

I would consider it is it isn't used instead of punishment, but running alongside it.

Except your previous comment 'holiday camp' could be straight out of one of the tabloids when in reality prison life is grim. I don't say this as someone who has read the Chief Inspector of Prisons report:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28233294

Even though he is correct.

I say this as someone who had to go into our local jail as part of a previous job, once a week, for 6 months. I can assure you they are grim, unrelenting, horrible places. Places that would make you despair of the human condition where there seemed to me to be little chance of rehabilitation, just reinforcement of the worst traits of humanity. Will we ever learn whilst you, people like you, and the press; pander to such misleading, preposterous caricatures.

You are promoting a stereotype that does not exist.

[Brownie]

I cannot add anything to what Trent has said except that I agree, including the 'tabloid stereotype' bit.

Prisons are quite the opposite of holiday camps, floo!  So you have no worries on that score.  I wonder if you have ever been in one and I don't mean as someone convicted of a crime but for any other purpose?

[ippy]

Prison should be a place  to which nobody ever wishes to return, not a holiday camp!

So you're saying no matter how well a system that looks like rewarding people for doing their crimes works, we should ignore their successes and bring out the thumb screws.

It can be proved that the Norwegian version of crime and punishment, without so much emphasis on the punishment, works, it's not a part of my imagination Floo.

ippy