Which century are we in?

[Owlswing]

Are there really people in the Western world who still believe in demonic possession?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/26/leading-us-exorcists-explain-huge-increase-in-demand-for-the-rit/?ref=yfp

[Maeght]

It never ceases to amaze me what people believe.

[Nearly Sane]

Are there really people in the Western world who still believe in demonic possession?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/26/leading-us-exorcists-explain-huge-increase-in-demand-for-the-rit/?ref=yfp

some of them post here

[Nearly Sane]

there is a poll at the bottom of the article with over 7600 people voting on whether they believe someone can be possessed by the devil or an evil spirit. It is currently running at 80% yes

[ekim]

there is a poll at the bottom of the article with over 7600 people voting on whether they believe someone can be possessed by the devil or an evil spirit. It is currently running at 80% yes

That should be good news for the Horror Film industry.

[Sriram]

Multiple Personality disorders (Dissociative Identity Disorder) can be seen as demonic possession. I don't think any clear understanding of this condition has been achieved.

Very peculiar symptoms have been noticed. Not only do different personalities remain unknown and uncontrolled by other personalities but they are often seen and referred to as different people by the dominant personality.

Different personalities can sometimes produce different physical symptoms. Certain allergies and even diabetes  has been known to be present only when certain personalities dominate and disappear when other personalities dominate. Even eye colour has been known to change with personalities.

https://scholarsbank.uoregon.edu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/1794/1330/Diss_1_1_5_OCR_rev.pdf?sequence=5

[Brownie]

Some peoples' eye colour changes with mood, Sririam.  That's a fact.  I don't mean change dramatically, like from dark brown to bright blue, but people with pale blue/green/ grey eyes will often observe colour changes, eg more green when tired, especially on getting up early,  clear grey most of the time, blue when passionate (they don't see the last one unless they get up and look in the mirror but someone else will usually say, "Wow your eyes are so blue").

I am in at least two minds about the rest of what you said  .

[Maeght]

That study you linked to Sriram is highly contentious and not really accepted by most people in the field. Eye colour and allergies are variable anyway as Brownie says.

The cause of DID is, as you say, not understood and the diagnosis can be controversial anyway but to consider that it is about demonic position? Well ... as has been said, what century are we in?

[Sriram]

That study you linked to Sriram is highly contentious and not really accepted by most people in the field. Eye colour and allergies are variable anyway as Brownie says.

The cause of DID is, as you say, not understood and the diagnosis can be controversial anyway but to consider that it is about demonic position? Well ... as has been said, what century are we in?

What has the century got to do with all this? Whatever is a fact is a fact. Its not like fashion of something. 'Oh my God... you're wearing bell bottoms in the 21st century'!!    Next you'll be horrified with faith in God in the 21st Century, I suppose! 

I mean to say...what do we mean by demonic possession? What is a demon? You don't have to relate it all to the bible, you know!

Its about the mind and its negative connotations. If people have negative intentions and an evil mind its normally referred to as demonic or devilish. These are just words.  We don't have to panic just because someone mentions demon or God. These are references to  mental forces that are divisive and cohesive respectively. 

If people lose control over their mind and behavior... and seem to be unpredictable, it is called demonic possession. Some other forces other than the person herself seems to be in control of her body and mind. And people like doctors etc. seem to be in no position to help or sort it out. 

We may find out what it is all about sometime or we may not.....which is besides the point.   

[Maeght]

I mean to say...what do we mean by demonic possession? What is a demon? You don't have to relate it all to the bible, you know!

demonic possession
Possession by a demon, sometimes resulting in strange behavior such as the vomiting of strange objects. (free Dictionary)

de·mon  (dē′mən)
n.
1. An evil supernatural being; a devil. (free Dictionary)

There, does that help?

What has the century got to do with all this?

Improved knowledge of the world around us replacing superstitious beliefs.

Whatever is a fact is a fact.

Obviously - but the existence of demons and demonic possession isn't a fact so irrelevant comment.

Next you'll be horrified with faith in God in the 21st Century, I suppose! 

Not horrified by belief in anything, but surprised by what people believe in, as I said.

Its about the mind and its negative connotations. If people have negative intentions and an evil mind its normally referred to as demonic or devilish. These are just words.  We don't have to panic just because someone mentions demon or God. These are references to  mental forces that are divisive and cohesive respectively.

Which is different from believing in demonic possession.

If people lose control over their mind and behavior... and seem to be unpredictable, it is called demonic possession.

No it isn't!

Some other forces other than the person herself seems to be in control of her body and mind.

So now you're suggesting its not just a state of mind but possession by an external force?

We may find out what it is all about sometime or we may not.....which is besides the point.   

Why is it beside the point?

[Sriram]

demonic possession
Possession by a demon, sometimes resulting in strange behavior such as the vomiting of strange objects. (free Dictionary)

de·mon  (dē′mən)
n.
1. An evil supernatural being; a devil. (free Dictionary)

There, does that help?

Improved knowledge of the world around us replacing superstitious beliefs.

Obviously - but the existence of demons and demonic possession isn't a fact so irrelevant comment.

Not horrified by belief in anything, but surprised by what people believe in, as I said.

Which is different from believing in demonic possession.

No it isn't!

So now you're suggesting its not just a state of mind but possession by an external force?

Why is it beside the point?

We don't even know what the mind is. You are merely assuming that it is just some electrical/chemical reaction in the brain. As far as I am concerned, the mind has several levels many of which are external and which use the brain as a platform....something like  higher level software that get downloaded into the hardware.   

So...IMO there is no contradiction between saying that something is a mental condition and saying that external forces affect the mind. The latter is the cause of the former.

We don't have any improved knowledge today that confirms or establishes that there are no external mental forces or that there are no demons and gods. These are just your beliefs.

[Maeght]

We don't even know what the mind is. You are merely assuming that it is just some electrical/chemical reaction in the brain.

That's what the current evidence indicates.

As far as I am concerned, the mind has several levels many of which are external and which use the brain as a platform....something like  higher level software that get downloaded into the hardware.

Yes, I know, but you have no evidence to support that belief.

So...IMO there is no contradiction between saying that something is a mental condition and saying that external forces affect the mind. The latter is the cause of the former.

Yes, I know, but you have no evidence to support that belief.

We don't have any improved knowledge today that confirms or establishes that there are no external mental forces or that there are no demons and gods.

Negative proof fallacy perhaps? We have improved knowledge which have identified causes for mental or medical conditions which were previously seen as to do with demons and the like. We do not currently have an understanding of the casues or symptoms referred to as multiple personalities, but just because we can't prove it is not demons doesn't make a belief in demons any more valid.

These are just your beliefs.

What are just my beliefs? There is no evidence for demons and the current evidence suggests that the mind is a result of brain activity. To go beyond that involves belief. To accept the current state of evidence and to accept that if there was convincing new evidence the current status of understanding would change is not a belief.

[Sriram]

My point is that...'demon' is just a word. You don't have to get scared of it.  It refers to negative mental influences and related behavior.

[ekim]

My point is that...'demon' is just a word. You don't have to get scared of it.  It refers to negative mental influences and related behavior.

It is, but it has lots of 12th Century Christian connotations ranging from lesser gods, heathen gods, unclean spirits to souls of the dead, as does 'devil' and 'fiend'.  The language of psychology and psychiatry tends to be used now as they better describe the observations of the forms and forces which go to make up the psyche or mind.  It is probably easier to demonstrate the external source of 'demonic' behaviour as resulting from amongst other things conditioning processes in earlier life.

[SweetPea]

Owlswing. OP title: Which century are we in?

Do you really think that because we are living in the 21st century, the spiritual realm has ceased to exist?

[Sriram]

It is, but it has lots of 12th Century Christian connotations ranging from lesser gods, heathen gods, unclean spirits to souls of the dead, as does 'devil' and 'fiend'.  The language of psychology and psychiatry tends to be used now as they better describe the observations of the forms and forces which go to make up the psyche or mind.  It is probably easier to demonstrate the external source of 'demonic' behaviour as resulting from amongst other things conditioning processes in earlier life.

That's why I said earlier that we don't have to relate it to the bible. Some people in all countries and communities have such mental symptoms.

I don't think all MPD cases are related to childhood abuse or sexual matters.

My point is that till we understand the mind and its complexities we cannot summarily dismiss any possibilities such as external mental influences. It is like NDE's that we have discussed many times before. Simplistic brain related explanations just don't suffice.  We have to think and find explanations beyond that. 


 

[Nearly Sane]

Owlswing. OP title: Which century are we in?

Do you really think that because we are living in the 21st century, the spiritual realm has ceased to exist?

Why doesn't god just get rid of demons?

[Owlswing]

Owlswing. OP title: Which century are we in?

Do you really think that because we are living in the 21st century, the spiritual realm has ceased to exist?

Exorcism was, in the 15th century, the sole prerogative of the Catholic Church, The use of the rite declined almost to extinction over the next five centuries, but revived with various films, including but not llimited to, the Exorcist films.

The idea of demonic possession is now almost totally restricted to the adherents of Voodoo and Christianity, particularly the Catholic church.

The existence of, and use for negative purposes of, demons are also one of the favourite claims made in attempts to "demonise" pagans and witches, frequently evidenced by posters on this forum when attacking my personal beliefs.

Of course the spiritual world still exists, it is the use of negatives attributed to that world and created for the purposes of allowing priests of Christianity to claim curative powers relating to (probable) mental conditions and expertise that they do not possess that I object to.

[Maeght]

My point is that...'demon' is just a word. You don't have to get scared of it.  It refers to negative mental influences and related behavior.

Demonic possession has a particular meaning. People saying they believe in demonic possession mean that they believe that evil spirits have taken over control of a human being. This is what is so surprising. People can say stuff like 'he's a real demon' or 'he's got a bit of devil about him', this does not mean they believe in demonic possession but are simply using common phrases and sayings which probably date  back to beliefs in demons (evil spirits) but no longer carry that referrence. Such phrases no longer refer to demonic possession since we have moved on from that now we are in the 21st century.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

There are many situations where the term Jesus Christ or the name of Jesus brings on a vehement and violent reaction.

This cannot be due to a justified and natural reaction to the so called oppression of Christianity since there are no accounts of similar reaction to the names of Torquemada, Luther, Roderick Borgia or even Cliff Richard.

So for me I accept that these things may be real but not in the medieval sense.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Exorcism was, in the 15th century, the sole prerogative of the Catholic Church, The use of the rite declined almost to extinction over the next five centuries, but revived with various films, including but not llimited to, the Exorcist films.

The idea of demonic possession is now almost totally restricted to the adherents of Voodoo and Christianity, particularly the Catholic church.

The existence of, and use for negative purposes of, demons are also one of the favourite claims made in attempts to "demonise" pagans and witches, frequently evidenced by posters on this forum when attacking my personal beliefs.

Of course the spiritual world still exists, it is the use of negatives attributed to that world and created for the purposes of allowing priests of Christianity to claim curative powers relating to (probable) mental conditions and expertise that they do not possess that I object to.

Anybody that can post about Pagan spells in all seriousness and then come on all hip and Dawkinsian and 21st century about Demons has got to be a big stripey Humbug.

[Gordon]

There are many situations where the term Jesus Christ or the name of Jesus brings on a vehement and violent reaction.

This cannot be due to a justified and natural reaction to the so called oppression of Christianity since there are no accounts of similar reaction to the names of Torquemada, Luther, Roderick Borgia or even Cliff Richard.

So for me I accept that these things may be real but not in the medieval sense.

Oh I'm not sure about that: Cliff has been responsible for some horrors - I cite 'Bachelor Boy' as evidence.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Oh I'm not sure about that: Cliff has been responsible for some horrors - I cite 'Bachelor Boy' as evidence.

Yes that is pretty bad but not as bad as Torquemadas cover of Gangnam style or Bertrand Russell doing Tea for Two.

[Gordon]

Yes that is pretty bad but not as bad as Torquemadas cover of Gangnam style or Bertrand Russell doing Tea for Two.

Then I give you 'Wired for Sound': that is surely the outer rim of infinite awfulness, even after allowing for 'Congratulations'.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Then I give you 'Wired for Sound': that is surely the outer rim of infinite awfulness, even after allowing for 'Congratulations'.

Wired for sound was great......... I'm afraid you're showing your taste bypass.