Author Topic: Atheism and the Celestial Teapot!  (Read 56488 times)

Gordon

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Re: Atheism and the Celestial Teapot!
« Reply #150 on: October 06, 2016, 08:12:08 PM »
Will those be examples or indistinguishable from examples?


When I get around to it - busy day in Modland today. I'm confident there will be no shortage of examples.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Atheism and the Celestial Teapot!
« Reply #151 on: October 06, 2016, 08:17:03 PM »

When I get around to it - busy day in Modland today. I'm confident there will be no shortage of examples.
show us the money.

Gordon

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Re: Atheism and the Celestial Teapot!
« Reply #152 on: October 06, 2016, 08:19:58 PM »
show us the money.

Here, for instance - check #143 & 144 where I've noted your strawman.

http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=12122.msg619233#msg619233

I'm sure there are plenty more but this one illustrates the point nicely.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Atheism and the Celestial Teapot!
« Reply #153 on: October 06, 2016, 08:28:09 PM »
Here, for instance - check #143 & 144 where I've noted your strawman.

http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=12122.msg619233#msg619233

I'm sure there are plenty more but this one illustrates the point nicely.
Number 141 you claim the Kalam cosmological argument is fallacious. I'm asking you to demonstrate it

Gordon

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Re: Atheism and the Celestial Teapot!
« Reply #154 on: October 06, 2016, 08:45:10 PM »
Number 141 you claim the Kalam cosmological argument is fallacious. I'm asking you to demonstrate it

In #143 you say this:

Quote
By all means demonstrate Gordon rather than just say there are are alternative arguments

to which I repond in #144

Quote
A straw man to start the day, Vlad, since I haven't claimed any alternative arguments.

Which I think is an example that is sufficient to illustrate my point.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Atheism and the Celestial Teapot!
« Reply #155 on: October 06, 2016, 09:38:39 PM »
In #143 you say this:

to which I repond in #144

Which I think is an example that is sufficient to illustrate my point.
Wrong. KCA was not demonstrated as fallacious. Arguments put by other people which was what we were talking about previous to these could therefore only be alternative arguments rather than demonstrations of fallacy.
Others were therefore making the arguments about alternatives. I wasn't even thinking of you although you went ahead and claimed that others were claiming KCA was fallacious rather than what they were doing which was putting alternatives to KCA. If the context  is understood correctly then you appear as a victim of your own confirmation bias...............Try another.
 
« Last Edit: October 06, 2016, 09:42:46 PM by Indistinguishable from Vlad. »

Anchorman

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Re: Atheism and the Celestial Teapot!
« Reply #156 on: October 07, 2016, 09:19:45 AM »
In what way?
I'd be interested to see the differences in the Pauline as opposed to the gospel writers views of the resurrection as well.
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SusanDoris

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Re: Atheism and the Celestial Teapot!
« Reply #157 on: October 07, 2016, 12:08:24 PM »
I'd be interested to see the differences in the Pauline as opposed to the gospel writers views of the resurrection as well.
Those discussions and/or differences are purely academic though, aren't they? What is so astonishing is that so many people in this modern day and age still believe, actually believe, that such a thing could happen.
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Gordon

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Re: Atheism and the Celestial Teapot!
« Reply #158 on: October 07, 2016, 12:42:11 PM »
Wrong. KCA was not demonstrated as fallacious. Arguments put by other people which was what we were talking about previous to these could therefore only be alternative arguments rather than demonstrations of fallacy.
Others were therefore making the arguments about alternatives. I wasn't even thinking of you although you went ahead and claimed that others were claiming KCA was fallacious rather than what they were doing which was putting alternatives to KCA. If the context  is understood correctly then you appear as a victim of your own confirmation bias...............Try another.

Nope - the KCA is fallacious, which has been pointed often, and the only thing to do when presented by fallacious arguments is to reject them out-of-hand, since they are bad arguments, rather than counter them with an alternative argument.

That, however, isn't the issue we are discussing. You portrayed my comment as indicating that I thought there were alternative arguments to the KCA and yet I made no reference to any alternative arguments in my post (which iirc was my first in that thread) since, as noted above, fallacies need only be rejected as bad arguments and not countered.

That is what the exchange shows: on that note I think we've derailed enough on this.

Anchorman

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Re: Atheism and the Celestial Teapot!
« Reply #159 on: October 07, 2016, 01:09:31 PM »
Those discussions and/or differences are purely academic though, aren't they? What is so astonishing is that so many people in this modern day and age still believe, actually believe, that such a thing could happen.
Those discussions and/or differences are purely academic though, aren't they? What is so astonishing is that so many people in this modern day and age still believe, actually believe, that such a thing could happen. [/quote - Why is it 'astonishing'?
« Last Edit: October 07, 2016, 01:18:18 PM by Anchorman »
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

jeremyp

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Re: Atheism and the Celestial Teapot!
« Reply #160 on: October 07, 2016, 01:23:07 PM »
Nope - the KCA is fallacious, which has been pointed often, and the only thing to do when presented by fallacious arguments is to reject them out-of-hand, since they are bad arguments, rather than counter them with an alternative argument.

That, however, isn't the issue we are discussing. You portrayed my comment as indicating that I thought there were alternative arguments to the KCA and yet I made no reference to any alternative arguments in my post (which iirc was my first in that thread) since, as noted above, fallacies need only be rejected as bad arguments and not countered.

That is what the exchange shows: on that note I think we've derailed enough on this.

The KCA is an argument for the existence of God. If the argument is fallacious (which it is), the only consequence is that we cannot be certain that God exists. We don't need to provide an alternate argument if we are prepared to accept that particular consequence. This is a concession that atheists are perfectly happy with.

So I really don't know what Vlad is asking for.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Atheism and the Celestial Teapot!
« Reply #161 on: October 07, 2016, 05:56:11 PM »
The KCA is an argument for the existence of God. If the argument is fallacious (which it is), the only consequence is that we cannot be certain that God exists. We don't need to provide an alternate argument if we are prepared to accept that particular consequence. This is a concession that atheists are perfectly happy with.

So I really don't know what Vlad is asking for.
A demonstration that it's fallacious might be a start.

SwordOfTheSpirit

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Re: Atheism and the Celestial Teapot!
« Reply #162 on: October 08, 2016, 11:22:22 AM »
Quote from: SusanDoris
...... I think I shall be adding Sword of the Spirit's name to those that I scroll past! The air of somewhat smug triumphalism.....
What??.... smh

I see no "air of somewhat smug triumphalism"..... rather, only someone that is expressing a different point of view to your point of view....
Thank you for your support SweetPea  :)

Mind, you, if I did want to take a triumphalist approach, I could learn from the poster who said this:

One of the reasons I come hereis to help to counter faith beliefs which are entirely without evidence so that those who browse or lurk realise that a large number of posters here are well, not ill, informed about reality and truth.

Or perhaps this (to bluehillside)

My dear bh,

Please, please don't let the moronic posts of some members of this board drive you away.

Most thinking people recognise the non-existence of the god brigade's "arguments", but much work still needs to be done to detox the minds of those still infected.

Your contributions are some of the most cogent and persuasive to achieve this.

Sincerely,
Leonard.

perhaps also from this argument from incredulity:

Quote from: Anchorman
I'd be interested to see the differences in the Pauline as opposed to the gospel writers views of the resurrection as well.
Those discussions and/or differences are purely academic though, aren't they? What is so astonishing is that so many people in this modern day and age still believe, actually believe, that such a thing could happen.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2016, 11:44:39 AM by SwordOfTheSpirit »
I haven't enough faith to be an atheist.

Gordon

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Re: Atheism and the Celestial Teapot!
« Reply #163 on: October 08, 2016, 11:48:12 AM »

perhaps also from this argument from incredulity:

Which aren't arguments from incredulity: I suspect this philosophy stuff has you well and truly stumped.

floo

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Re: Atheism and the Celestial Teapot!
« Reply #164 on: October 08, 2016, 11:53:01 AM »
One person's philosophy is another's gibberish!

Gordon

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Re: Atheism and the Celestial Teapot!
« Reply #165 on: October 08, 2016, 11:58:02 AM »
One person's philosophy is another's gibberish!

Not really Floo - philosophy itself is fine, but the misuse of philosophy generally isn't.

floo

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Re: Atheism and the Celestial Teapot!
« Reply #166 on: October 08, 2016, 12:00:01 PM »
Not really Floo - philosophy itself is fine, but the misuse of philosophy generally isn't.

I agree, my previous comment was tongue firmly in cheek. :D

SusanDoris

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Re: Atheism and the Celestial Teapot!
« Reply #167 on: October 08, 2016, 12:31:09 PM »
Sword of the spirit

The trouble is that you have only faith beliefs about God etc. Just substantiate one with a fact an, like akaleidoscope, the whole world pattern will change, producing a pattern that is not only beautiful but completely harmonious too plus being   in tune with reality.
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jeremyp

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Re: Atheism and the Celestial Teapot!
« Reply #168 on: October 08, 2016, 12:39:58 PM »
A demonstration that it's fallacious might be a start.
That's easy. Let's take Craig's version

1 Whatever begins to exist has a cause;

2 The universe began to exist;

Therefore:

3 The universe has a cause.

Neither 1 nor 2 are known to be true. The argument is therefore unsound.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Atheism and the Celestial Teapot!
« Reply #169 on: October 08, 2016, 01:01:30 PM »
That's easy. Let's take Craig's version

1 Whatever begins to exist has a cause;

2 The universe began to exist;

Therefore:

3 The universe has a cause.
 
Neither 1 nor 2 are known to be true. The argument is therefore unsound.
I don't know about that since they could both be true. You seem to be turning a maybe into a definitely not. In other words you seem to be giving greater validity to things not observed(The suspension of cause and effect and things popping up out of nothing). I'm not sure that helps you when you make those appeals to evidence and the need for evidence base.


« Last Edit: October 08, 2016, 01:19:25 PM by Indistinguishable from Vlad. »

Gordon

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Re: Atheism and the Celestial Teapot!
« Reply #170 on: October 08, 2016, 01:19:31 PM »
I don't know about that since they could both be true. You seem to be turning a maybe into a definitely not. In other words you seem to be giving greater validity to things not observed(The suspension of cause and effect and eternal entities). I'm not sure that helps you when you make those appeals to evidence and the need for evidence base.

It is an example of begging the question.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Atheism and the Celestial Teapot!
« Reply #171 on: October 08, 2016, 01:20:33 PM »
It is an example of begging the question.
How?

jeremyp

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Re: Atheism and the Celestial Teapot!
« Reply #172 on: October 08, 2016, 01:30:16 PM »
I don't know about that since they could both be true.
Could both be true is not good enough. The argument fails because one or both statements could be false.

Quote
You seem to be turning a maybe into a definitely not.

No I'm not and I have explicitly said so. If you look at my previous reply, you'll see that I wrote:

If the argument is fallacious (which it is), the only consequence is that we cannot be certain that God exists.

Quote
In other words you seem to be giving greater validity to things not observed(The suspension of cause and effect and things popping up out of nothing). I'm not sure that helps you when you make those appeals to evidence and the need for evidence base.
I'm not giving validity to anything. All I am saying is that the mere possibility that the Universe is eternal or that cause and effect doesn't always apply destroys the KCA. But destroying the KCA is not equivalent to proving there is no god.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Atheism and the Celestial Teapot!
« Reply #173 on: October 08, 2016, 01:36:56 PM »
Could both be true is not good enough. The argument fails because one or both statements could be false.

No I'm not and I have explicitly said so. If you look at my previous reply, you'll see that I wrote:
I'm not giving validity to anything. All I am saying is that the mere possibility that the Universe is eternal or that cause and effect doesn't always apply destroys the KCA. But destroying the KCA is not equivalent to proving there is no god.
Agreed.
You still seem to be appealing to those things which have no evidence as having greater value than that with evidence namely a mediocre universe of cause and effect and a big bang.

Also following your logic about mere possibilities destroying arguments.............. that would mean that the mere possibility of God destroys any argument for naturalism. 
« Last Edit: October 08, 2016, 01:45:04 PM by Indistinguishable from Vlad. »

Gordon

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Re: Atheism and the Celestial Teapot!
« Reply #174 on: October 08, 2016, 01:56:59 PM »