Mahatma Gandhi

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

Today is Mahatma Gandhi's birthday...celebrated as Gandhi Jayanti in India. He is regarded as the Father of the Nation and was the inspiration and leader who guided millions of Indians over more than 30 years towards a non violent struggle for Independence from British rule. He led millions of uneducated Indians across class, caste, religion and region to make sacrifices and take up a bold stand against British rule.

He is not seen just as a political leader but as a saint and moral guide on non violence, truthfulness and simplicity. 

He nevertheless had great respect for the British and was foremost in supporting the British during the World War (right in the middle of the fight for independence). Millions of Indian soldiers died in the War fighting for the British Empire, while still demanding freedom for their country.

Gandhi did not believe that the End justified the Means. The Means we employ are as important as the End.

Albert Einstein once said of him... "Generations to come will scarce believe that such a one as this ever in flesh and blood walked upon this earth".

Here is a link to the Oscar winning film 'Gandhi' made by Sir Richard Attenborough.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elGNe56QIXI

Please watch it fully.

Cheers.

Sriram

[trippymonkey]

Namaste Sriram bhaiya !!!
A most wonderful character & forever in Indian, nay WORLD history !!!

Does make one wonder how the British came into 'control' of India in the first place & has it been worth it all, in the end - na

Nick

[Sriram]

Namaste Sriram bhaiya !!!
A most wonderful character & forever in Indian, nay WORLD history !!!

Does make one wonder how the British came into 'control' of India in the first place & has it been worth it all, in the end - na

Nick

Namaste Nickji!  Hope you are well.

I believe in destiny and most of our selfish intentions are used by destiny (God?) for some purpose in the long run.

For example, the British conquered some parts of the world, set up trading companies in other places and finally took over the country.  It was all done for selfish economic & military reasons...but it resulted in integrating and uniting the world under one common language and culture. Destiny works in mysterious ways.

But for British rule, India itself may not have been one nation. It would probably have been several independent princely states.  Technology and common infrastructure such as the railways, roads, postal system, electricity grid etc. were planned and set up by the Britiish for their own selfish purposes, which nevertheless helped India a lot.

The British Empire has also helped in globalization and in creating an international common culture.  So it all worked out well in the final analysis.

[Sebastian Toe]

He nevertheless had great respect for the British and was foremost in supporting the British during the World War (right in the middle of the fight for independence). Millions of Indian soldiers died in the War fighting for the British Empire, while still demanding freedom for their country.

Hi Sriram,  I'm with you on most of your post, except for the 'millions of Indian soldiers died' bit.

I would have thought that tens of thousands would have been more accurate?

Where did you get your figures from?

[trippymonkey]

Seb - Come on, this is India !!!

Sriram bhai - Totally agree. Many I chat with IN India, yes I've been soooooo many times now it's my 2nd home, say it was the British who 'united' India in a common language ie ENGLISH as India is a continent with so many differing ways of doing things. Each state can have several different languages in it !!!! Wonderful !!!

Nick

[Sriram]

Hi Sriram,  I'm with you on most of your post, except for the 'millions of Indian soldiers died' bit.

I would have thought that tens of thousands would have been more accurate?

Where did you get your figures from?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_in_World_War_II

************

At the height of the World War, more than 2.5 million Indian troops were fighting Axis forces around the globe.[8]

"In 1939 the Indian Army numbered 205,000 men. It took in volunteers and by 1945 was the largest all-volunteer force in history, rising to over 2.5 million men.[13] These forces included tank, artillery and airborne forces. Indian soldiers earned 30 Victoria Crosses during World War II."

************

[SqueakyVoice]

And from here

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Army_during_World_War_II

World War II cost the lives of over 87,000 soldiers, air crews and mariners from the Indian Empire,[98] This included 24,338 killed and 11,754 missing in action.[131] the overwhelming majority being members of the Indian Army. Another 34,354 more were wounded,[98]

So, millions fought and tens of thousands died.

[Sriram]

And from here

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Army_during_World_War_II
So, millions fought and tens of thousands died.

Yeah....fair enough. Millions fought and about 87000 died. Sorry about that.

[Brownie]

One of my icons, wonderful man.  I've seen the film a few times Sririam, my favourite film of all time.  When it was first shown I remember a lot of Indian people saying, "That was not the Gandhi we knew";  fair enough I suppose (they weren't being negative about the Mahatma, just saying he wasn't quite like he was portrayed in the film).  It was still a great film and from what I read, historically accurate and captured the mood of the time.

When I was younger, and more fanciful, I used to say I looked forward to meeting Mahatma Gandhi one day in Heaven  .

There is a Mahatma Gandhi Hall in central London.  Now a youth hostel, when I was a teenager it was a well known meeting place for people involved in the peace movement.  There were lectures and groups would often assemble there before commencing a peace march.

[Sebastian Toe]

Yeah....fair enough. Millions fought and about 87000 died. Sorry about that.

cheers. That was what was puzzling me about your original statement. 

[Jack Knave]

Namaste Nickji!  Hope you are well.

I believe in destiny and most of our selfish intentions are used by destiny (God?) for some purpose in the long run.

For example, the British conquered some parts of the world, set up trading companies in other places and finally took over the country.  It was all done for selfish economic & military reasons...but it resulted in integrating and uniting the world under one common language and culture. Destiny works in mysterious ways.

But for British rule, India itself may not have been one nation. It would probably have been several independent princely states.  Technology and common infrastructure such as the railways, roads, postal system, electricity grid etc. were planned and set up by the Britiish for their own selfish purposes, which nevertheless helped India a lot.

The British Empire has also helped in globalization and in creating an international common culture.  So it all worked out well in the final analysis.

You think globalization is a good thing? And a common culture?

[Sriram]

You think globalization is a good thing? And a common culture?

Integration is always a good thing.  At least language and lifestyle will not be barriers to people coming together.

It has its share of problems, of course....but the problems stemming from language and cultural barriers are much more.   

[L.A.]

You think globalization is a good thing? And a common culture?

If you think globalisation is a bad thing Jack, you definitely backed the wrong side in the referendum. Brexit is likely to result in a great many British jobs being exported, while those 'evil capitalist' that you despise so much will be having a good laugh at all the silly sods who voted for Leave!

[Sriram]

Integration is always a good thing.  At least language and lifestyle will not be barriers to people coming together.

It has its share of problems, of course....but the problems stemming from language and cultural barriers are much more.

I am of course not talking about politics, Govt structures and a federal arrangement or anything of that sort. I am just referring to communication and a sense of mutual respect.

Even the fact that some of us here are talking to each other from different continents is an example of the benefits and positive aspects of this common language and culture. 100 years ago it was unthinkable.

[Bubbles]

I don't see Ghandi as a saint.

I think he was just a bit too pacifist for me.

Not everyone sees him in a positive light, although he is a leading figure for peace.

If he had been talking about my relatives being killed and about being cheerful about it, I don't think I'd have seen eye to eye with him.

http://www.sanskritimagazine.com/india/the-little-known-dark-side-of-gandhi/

[Sriram]

I don't see Ghandi as a saint.

I think he was just a bit too pacifist for me.

Not everyone sees him in a positive light, although he is a leading figure for peace.

If he had been talking about my relatives being killed and about being cheerful about it, I don't think I'd have seen eye to eye with him.

http://www.sanskritimagazine.com/india/the-little-known-dark-side-of-gandhi/

Say something positive about anyone....Gandhi,  St.Teresa, Jesus, Mandela, Buddha, Mohammad...etc., and someone will point out all the terrible terrible things that they did!   

Its obviously good to take a balanced view of everyone...no doubt...but the need to put down people who have great name and influence seems to be innate in humans.  Some kind of an envy and inadequacy in oneself...that makes us point out all the negative things...and derive consolation.

We should guard against this tendency becoming a habit.

[Bubbles]

Say something positive about anyone....Gandhi,  St.Teresa, Jesus, Mandela, Buddha, Mohammad...etc., and someone will point out all the terrible terrible things that they did!   

Its obviously good to take a balanced view of everyone...no doubt...but the need to put down people who have great name and influence seems to be innate in humans.  Some kind of an envy and inadequacy in oneself...that makes us point out all the negative things...and derive consolation.

We should guard against this tendency becoming a habit.

I don't really agree with putting people on a pedestal, Sriram.

I'm sure like most people Ghandi said and did, good and bad things.

I don't accept something just because the person saying it is Gandhi,  St.Teresa, Jesus, Mandela, Buddha, Mohammad...etc

I'm not a follower, of anyone really.

Some people have a tendancy to follow these people no matter what idiocy they come out with.

I don't think anyone, no matter how " saintly" should be above criticism.

To many people semi worship their heroes.

IMO "heroes"  are still human beings and Mohammed, Ghandi and the rest can be just as wrong as anyone else.

I don't believe in doing the idol worship bit, and I am intent on making the tendancy a habit.

That's because I believe it is wrong to elevate other human beings in that way.

I think the right path is to keep your critical tendencies, not surrender them to the idea someone else has some ultimate wisdom that overrules  your own.

That's the tendancy to be wary of IMO, becoming a sheep.

[Sriram]

I am not even talking about hero worship.  I am just talking about acknowledging that the person is greater than we are and that we cannot possibly achieve or do those things that he/she has done. Hurriedly pointing out the negatives of the person is a Ego position that becomes judgmental.

Hero worship is a  Stage 1 (childish position). Judgmental criticism is a Stage 2 (adolescent) position. I am talking about trying to take a Stage 3 (mature) position.

[Bubbles]

I am not even talking about hero worship.  I am just talking about acknowledging that the person is greater than we are and that we cannot possibly achieve or do those things that he/she has done. Hurriedly pointing out the negatives of the person is a Ego position that becomes judgmental.

Hero worship is a  Stage 1 (childish position). Judgmental criticism is a Stage 2 (adolescent) position. I am talking about trying to take a Stage 3 (mature) position.

You can't see it, in yourself. 


Just by saying that   "acknowledging that the person is greater than we are and that we cannot possibly achieve or do those things that he/she has done. " you are  lifting that person up and making them larger than life.

The next step is to stop being critical of their other ideas.

I'd disagree that " any person is greater than we are and that we cannot possibly achieve or do those things that he/she has done. "

We are ALL  capable of what someone else has done, they get the credit for having done so, it's true.
They deserve that, but only that.

They are not divine and do not belong on a pedestal.

If they drank horse wee, it doesn't mean  you need to.

It sounds silly, but some people do. Example : Mohammed believed it, so it must be true.

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Camel_Urine_and_Islam


Thinking they have done something no other person can, is lifting them up, while finding an easy out for yourself.

The mature position is to recognise this, IMO and while recognising what they have done, also being aware they are no different to any other human being on the planet, warts and all.

They are not unique, other than we are all unique.


There is nothing one human being has done, that couldn't have been done by another, given the same opportunities or willingness.

Everyone, in existence is capable of much more than they think possible.

Give credit to actions by all means, I'm not against that, it's good for inspirational actions to inspire.

I'm against thinking somehow that person is above us, they are not.


Jimmy Saville is a good example of someone who did good things, who was revered, and people didn't like to challenge him.

Look at the fall he got from his pedestal.

Putting people on pedestals does away with our ability to see their faults, and everyone has faults.

A lot of faults don't hurt others, but some do.

Believing someone is above us in some way, can leave others vunerable, because we become blind.

IMO anyway.


The idea of a Guru doesn't appeal, no human being has all wisdom.

Some are wise in some respects but not in others and I believe you have to sort things out for yourself.

I'm sort of anti guru, Sriram.

 

[trippymonkey]

Mohammed was NOT a perfect human being ?!!?!?!?

DEATH to the infidel !!! LOL

Only kidding Of Course !!!

Nick

[Gonnagle]

Dear Rose,

What are you wittering on about, great heroes of our past and present are pointers to what we can achieve, and depending on the type of person you are, you can put them on a pedestal or indeed even worship.

Saying like,

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

and,

Standing on Giants Shoulders

come to mind, Gandhi's life is a real inspiration.

The life's of men like Gandhi should be celebrated, our kids should be reminded of what Great men and women can achieve by peaceful protest, in fact I would go so far and say, the life of Gandhi should be on the national curriculum, ask our kids if they know of anyone in their community who espouses the standards that Gandhi lived by.

I put Gandhi on a pedestal, a man who changed the course of history.

The best way to find yourself is to lose yourself in the service of others.

Mahatma Gandhi

Mark 42 - 45

42 So Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers in this world lord it over their people, and officials flaunt their authority over those under them. 43 But among you it will be different. Whoever wants to be a leader among you must be your servant, 44 and whoever wants to be first among you must be the slave of everyone else. 45 For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve others and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

Was Gandhi a good Christian! Well he gets my vote

Gonnagle.

[Bubbles]

Dear Rose,

What are you wittering on about, great heroes of our past and present are pointers to what we can achieve, and depending on the type of person you are, you can put them on a pedestal or indeed even worship.

Saying like,  and,
come to mind, Gandhi's life is a real inspiration.

The life's of men like Gandhi should be celebrated, our kids should be reminded of what Great men and women can achieve by peaceful protest, in fact I would go so far and say, the life of Gandhi should be on the national curriculum, ask our kids if they know of anyone in their community who espouses the standards that Gandhi lived by.

I put Gandhi on a pedestal, a man who changed the course of history.

Mahatma Gandhi

Mark 42 - 45

Was Gandhi a good Christian! Well he gets my vote

Gonnagle.

I'm not saying " don't admire the good  things they do or say" just don't accept everything else they do and say,  without criticism.

 

[Bubbles]

Mohammed was NOT a perfect human being ?!!?!?!?

DEATH to the infidel !!! LOL

Only kidding Of Course !!!

Nick

You are only kidding Nick, but unfortunately some people think Mohammed was perfect and will kill anyone who says he wasn't.

Even another Muslim.

[Brownie]

Nobody has said Gandhi was perfect.  He was human and made mistakes.  The Attenborough film sanitised him (if that is the right word), but people who knew him, and loved him, were aware of his faults which are also well documented in writing.

Personally I like people who show humanity and flaws and that is why I think Gandhi was great, warts and all.

What I hate is when someone is put on a pedestal, then makes a mistake and all his/her previous supporters are down on him like a ton of bricks.  Totally unfair.

[Sriram]

You can't see it, in yourself. 


Just by saying that   "acknowledging that the person is greater than we are and that we cannot possibly achieve or do those things that he/she has done. " you are  lifting that person up and making them larger than life.

The next step is to stop being critical of their other ideas.

I'd disagree that " any person is greater than we are and that we cannot possibly achieve or do those things that he/she has done. "

We are ALL  capable of what someone else has done, they get the credit for having done so, it's true.
They deserve that, but only that.

They are not divine and do not belong on a pedestal.

If they drank horse wee, it doesn't mean  you need to.

It sounds silly, but some people do. Example : Mohammed believed it, so it must be true.

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Camel_Urine_and_Islam


Thinking they have done something no other person can, is lifting them up, while finding an easy out for yourself.

The mature position is to recognise this, IMO and while recognising what they have done, also being aware they are no different to any other human being on the planet, warts and all.

They are not unique, other than we are all unique.


There is nothing one human being has done, that couldn't have been done by another, given the same opportunities or willingness.

Everyone, in existence is capable of much more than they think possible.

Give credit to actions by all means, I'm not against that, it's good for inspirational actions to inspire.

I'm against thinking somehow that person is above us, they are not.


Jimmy Saville is a good example of someone who did good things, who was revered, and people didn't like to challenge him.

Look at the fall he got from his pedestal.

Putting people on pedestals does away with our ability to see their faults, and everyone has faults.

A lot of faults don't hurt others, but some do.

Believing someone is above us in some way, can leave others vunerable, because we become blind.

IMO anyway.


The idea of a Guru doesn't appeal, no human being has all wisdom.

Some are wise in some respects but not in others and I believe you have to sort things out for yourself.

I'm sort of anti guru, Sriram.

 

No one is perfect...we all know that. But claiming that anyone of us can calmly stand up to charging horses or that anyone of us can pick up lepers from the streets and care for them personally.....is a little too much!!

There are truly great men and women in this world ...and always have been.  Recognizing their greatness inspires us also to great thoughts and deeds. It is not hero worship.

If every time some such great person is mentioned, someone starts listing out their imperfections, it shows a habitual tendency towards cynicism.  That is not healthy.