The centre ground

[wigginhall]

Steve Hilton, former Tory advisor, suggested tattooing foreigners' wrists with their number.  Irony, of course.   It's dead in the water.   Just another U-turn, folks.

[Nearly Sane]

I see Mhaira Black has compared the Tories to Nazi Germany and ended her little piece with.......

So let me finish with a poem by Martin Niemoller:

http://tinyurl.com/jg9qvmw

And the first thing that came into my head when I heard Rudd's speech was wouldn't it be easier if they made the foreigners wear badges. The Tories are not fascist just irresponsibly unpleasant to use rhetoric to make people feel branded and afraid. Let's remember it was not just Rudd, bit Fix and Hunt and May herself who used this sort of rhetoric.

[wigginhall]

I suppose they were flying a kite, to see how much racism people would accept.   I guess some people would accept foreigners being identifiable, but business itself seemed horrified by the suggestion.  First, that they would have to become minor immigration officials, and second, that firms with a lot of foreigners could become targets for right-wing thugs.   Third, of course, some industries are global and have a global staff, who move around a lot, and it's insane to start filtering out foreigners.

[JP]

So you don't disagree with her then?

[Nearly Sane]

Disagree with her about what?

[JP]

Tories = Nazis in 1930's Germany and her use of that particular poem

[Nearly Sane]

Tories = Nazis in 1930's Germany and her use of that particular poem

Was there a bit of 'The Tories are not fascists' in my post that you missed?
Further I suggest you reread the column you posted as she doesn't say equals but that the rhetoric is comparable, if not the intention.

As to the use of the poem, in challenging this sort of irresponsible approach, the happiness to make people afraid, absolutely I agree with her

[wigginhall]

Many people have loosely compared this to the Nazis, see above, Steve Hilton (who is a Tory) saying that we should tattoo foreigners' wrists with their number.   I don't think this involves a serious comparison with the Nazis.  Hyperbole.

[JP]

But the comparsion of Corbyn to Stalin isn't.

After all, the Tories aren't killing millions.

[JP]

Politicians, fuck them all.

First of all the Scot nats have only one thing on their agenda and will use any method to achieve it, no matter how shameful it is.

Second the labour party who, with their unfettetered immigration without infrastructure investment created a perfect storm. Wages stagnated, house prices and rents rocketed, public services crumbled. Education, education, education went with barely a fizz apart from setting the seeds to turn it into a real business, a money making machine. What was started under Thatcher, Blair at al finished off.

(Young) people have been shit on by everyone. No housing, no jobs, no investment, no training, no apprentiships, poor wages.

Policy seems to be, let us import people from abroad. Is it a good idea to let a poor country like the Phillipines train nurses for them to be poached by a country which is, as we are constantly told, is the worlds 5th biggest economy

How about recruiting here, investing in the people who live here. Ignoring all of the above got 17+ million to vote for leaving the EU and still they bicker like a bunch of 5 year olds, all of them selfish self serving with their own agenda, Scotnats worst of all by a short head.

[Nearly Sane]

Really good rant, essentially irrelevant to the question we were discussing

[Nearly Sane]

But the comparsion of Corbyn to Stalin isn't.

After all, the Tories aren't killing millions.

Corbyn is neither using Communist rhetoric nor approaching Stalin's efficiency. He's a medium leftish geography teacher who by dint of the sudden death of the head teacher has been given the headship because he always brought in good biscuits and sympathy.

[JP]

And the Tories are not using Nazi rhetoric.

There is nobody in the middle ground. The Tories will always be to the right, Labour to the left (but under Corbyn it will be left as in where Venezuela sits} and as for the Scotnats, well they have the best of all worlds.

And while all this takes place Rome burns.

[Nearly Sane]

And the Tories are not using Nazi rhetoric.

There is nobody in the middle ground. The Tories will always be to the right, Labour to the left (but under Corbyn it will be left as in where Venezuela sits} and as for the Scotnats, well they have the best of all worlds.

And while all this takes place Rome burns.

they are using rhetoric that sounds directly like Mein Kampf as the article pointed out, that and the League of Gentleman.

[Gonnagle]

Dear JP,

Thank you for your Mhairi Black link, which took me on to more Tory misery,

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/04/150-army-cadet-units-open-state-schools-michael-fallon

Army Cadets! Prison jobs for our armed forces!

The Tory party at their best, Queen Victoria is still on the throne

Gonnagle.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

It's like 1981 again.

I only wish that I had the money to reform the SDP.

I am not joking.

[JP]

they are using rhetoric that sounds directly like Mein Kampf as the article pointed out, that and the League of Gentleman.

As the Labour lot use rhetoric from Mao's little red book or Trotskys Literature and Revolution.

Given the millions the Nazis murdered, worked to death in forced labour and imprisoned without trial do you think the use of Niemoller's quote appropriate?

[JP]

Dear JP,

Thank you for your Mhairi Black link, which took me on to more Tory misery,

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/04/150-army-cadet-units-open-state-schools-michael-fallon

Army Cadets! Prison jobs for our armed forces!

The Tory party at their best, Queen Victoria is still on the throne

Gonnagle.

Tory misery from seeds set by Labour mismanagement who thought, as all Labour governments think, that they can just keep borrowing billions and spending it. Had they more time we could have been like Greece or Italy.

My son and daughter and their generation are suffering because of Labour, not the Tories.

[Nearly Sane]

As the Labour lot use rhetoric from Mao's little red book or Trotskys Literature and Revolution.

Given the millions the Nazis murdered, worked to death in forced labour and imprisoned without trial do you think the use of Niemoller's quote appropriate?

err no they , don't. And I've already covered the direct equalisation as not being true, and not what is going on, three times on this thread. Why do you think lying about peoples' positions is acceptable?

[ProfessorDavey]

Tory misery from seeds set by Labour mismanagement who thought, as all Labour governments think, that they can just keep borrowing billions and spending it. Had they more time we could have been like Greece or Italy.

My son and daughter and their generation are suffering because of Labour, not the Tories.

Up until the 2008 global crash, the last Labour government had borrowing (adjusted for GDP) at levels lower than any government since the first world war. And because the cost of the debt was very low, the cost of servicing the debt was the lowest since Victoria was on the throne.

So the 5 year since 1900 with the lowest cost of servicing debt as a proportion of GDP are 2002-2007.

And don't forget that Labour ran budget surpluses in a number of years in the early noughties something that the previous Tory administration managed in just a single year of its 18 in power, I believe.

So don't believe the spin, why not rely on the facts.

[Gonnagle]

Dear JP,

Tory misery from seeds set by Labour mismanagement who thought, as all Labour governments think, that they can just keep borrowing billions and spending it. Had they more time we could have been like Greece or Italy.

No argument from me old son, Blairite government was a shambles, their open cheque book and allowing the wankers Bankers free rein was a recipe for disaster.

But it is this government we need to focus on, not past governments, this governments relentless drive for austerity has only hurt the poor, bullies who only hit out at the weak in our society, the Tories need to grow a backbone and go after the big companies who are stealing our taxes, legitimately or illegally, it is still morally wrong.

The Tories were handed a poison chalice, they did have a huge task ahead after the banking crisis, and they were right, we all needed to tighten our belts after that fiasco, but the poorest in our society should have been last on their list, and for me this one of the reasons we have this brexit nonsense, the Tories failed to invest in our poorest areas, and those areas needed to blame someone, along came Farage, the reason you are poor is that the immigrants are stealing your jobs and keeping wages low, the reason you are poor is because of those fat cats in Europe.

Now the Tories need to deal with their own mistakes and they are making a complete hash of it, the majority voted for brexit, the majority should decide on what brexit means, brexit should be a cross party consultation, every MP should be involved, it should be debated quietly and in a grown up fashion, in my opinion brexit was a terrible decision, can we go back on it, well I don't know, but if we go forward, then everyone needs to be involved, this is not a vote catching exercise, this is a get the country united exercise, the Tories must do the grown up thing and ask for help.

Small early morning rantette over on the bright side, we need more of this from the government,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-37550769

A lot more of this, investing in our future.

Gonnagle.

PS : Ooops, and then along comes PRofDavey with the facts, although I do stand by my statement that the Blairite government was a shambles.

[Aruntraveller]

Tory misery from seeds set by Labour mismanagement who thought, as all Labour governments think, that they can just keep borrowing billions and spending it. Had they more time we could have been like Greece or Italy.

Which is all a complete lie of course.

Borrowing is now at a record high under the Coalition and now Conservative government.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/9414274/UK-Government-borrowing-rises-in-graphs.html

[Jack Knave]

If you want to compete in the global market place, you need to be able to hire the best people in the World. If you don't, your competitors will and they'll put you out of business.

The main problem has been unskilled and low skilled labour which has depressed wages. As for the higher skilled end we can train our own and not be a parasite on poorer countries.

[jeremyp]

The main problem has been unskilled and low skilled labour which has depressed wages.

The term "unskilled" is a slight misnomer. An unskilled labourer can be good or bad at their job. An unskilled labourer can be conscientious or not, hard working or not, punctual or not etc. If the unskilled labourers from Poland are twice as productive as unskilled labourers from England, the jobs will end up with the Polish workers one way or the other. Either we welcome them and they do the work here or we don't welcome them and the jobs move to Poland. Which of those two options do you think is best for the British economy?

[Jack Knave]

It's like 1981 again.

I only wish that I had the money to reform the SDP.

I am not joking.

I read that as 1984. I thought bloody hell what's going on?!?!?!?