The centre ground

[Jack Knave]

The term "unskilled" is a slight misnomer. An unskilled labourer can be good or bad at their job. An unskilled labourer can be conscientious or not, hard working or not, punctual or not etc. If the unskilled labourers from Poland are twice as productive as unskilled labourers from England, the jobs will end up with the Polish workers one way or the other. Either we welcome them and they do the work here or we don't welcome them and the jobs move to Poland. Which of those two options do you think is best for the British economy?

Who said anything about being good or bad at their job? I think some of your bolts have come loose.

Why are you talking down the British worker, and Britain?

[jeremyp]

Who said anything about being good or bad at their job?

I did. You seemed to be under the laughable misapprehension that all unskilled workers are interchangeable.

I think some of your bolts have come loose.

So now we know that you don't have a reasoned answer to my post, since you have descended to insults.

Why are you talking down the British worker, and Britain?

Why should I accept substandard expensive service just because it is being delivered by a British person? Nobody else does.

[Jack Knave]

I did. You seemed to be under the laughable misapprehension that all unskilled workers are interchangeable.

So now we know that you don't have a reasoned answer to my post, since you have descended to insults.
Why should I accept substandard expensive service just because it is being delivered by a British person? Nobody else does.

Why can't we train our own people and stop sponging off others?

[Anchorman]

#46. Gonners, You expect some part(ies) to unite our country? (Er.....there's a can of worms for a start....) There was no unity in the brexit vote -two parts of the 'uk' voted against it. There was no unity in accepting a Tory Government - one part voted decisivly against it and will find it hard to thole anything which comes from a government we manifestly rejected and a woman with no mandate to negotiate our future - OUR future - in Europe. Not only that, Labour is shattered and will be a busted flush for the next few years in Westminster - even more so up here, with the Corbyn/anti Corbyn factions simply piled onto the war between Dugdale and her deputy. The Lib Dems are a joke. I hate to admit it, but the only half decent opposition here is Davidson....and she's only there because some SLAB voters 'leant' their votes to the Tories at the last Holyrood election to be a bulwark against Sturgeon.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jim,

Lets look at your post, lets say from a different perspective, lets look at shattered Labour party, well in Scotland, it is and you can't get away from it, it is a Labour heartland, oh yes! SNP are riding a wonderful wave at the moment and Sturgeon is a brilliant politician but at sometime she is going to have to make some important decisions, the SNP have already sided with the Tories, Heathrow, bang!! there goes the Green party alliance.

The Tory party, you forget that the borders voted decisively Tory, they are at the moment the second biggest party here in Scotland, Sturgeon is on a knife edge, every move she makes is watched by Labour and the Tories, please don't forget it is a Labour voting country, but Sturgeon allowed a large ship to dock at Grangemouth, although this country is against fracking.

Brexit, a mess, a complete Tory mess, no one else to blame, lay it firmly at the Tory doorstep, the Labour party just has to watch as they crumble, Corbyn needs to do nothing but sit on his hands and the Tories will implode.

Dugdale, the lady is no match for Corbyn, how can you defeat an honest man, Corbyn will sweep into this country, pick up the union vote, the socialist vote and lets not forget the Unionist flag waving protestant vote, it is there Jim!!

Me Jim! I like Sturgeon but as the Tories and Labour are pushing, she has to govern this country, make decisions, real decisions, no more Independence rubbish until we see real governance.

It is all to play for, I want SNP to run all over the Labour party, but the SNP has to show real governance, real decisions.

Gonnagle.

[Anchorman]

Gonners; You know my views on independence. If anything the divergence between the Scottish and british electorate in the referendum has only sharpened and deepened my commitment to end a union which failed decades ago. But for once this isn't about SNP - not really. Yes, we did well at the last Holyrood poll - even though we lost our majority we gained a share in the total votes cast. I'd like to say that this was because we were the outstanding policy promoters - but I'm not that naive. We won because the other parties lost - Labour in particular. Coming from Kier Hardie country, that genuinely saddens me; there are no Labour administered councils, no Labour MPs, MSPs or MEPs in this area. Yes, Scotland needs a strong government - and knowing Nicola as I do, she's one strong wee lassie - folk thought Eck was the big cheese? Not really, Nicola was the mover behind his throne. But we need a strong opposition to keep the government on its' toes - and we don't have it. Dugdale is the worst in an increasingly pathetic strand of Labour leaders and her constant u-turns in opinion and policy not only destroys her credibility, it destabilises an already demoralised party. Corbyn can't appeal to Scotland without SLAB being on message - and they are so rudderless that they are nowhere near bring effective. The distrust of Lib-Demery after Carmichael genuinely saddens me. And the Tories will snap a few dissafected Blairites. but will take decades to erod the visceral distrust they have. So Scotland is far from united. I hope Nicola manages to hold SNP together - if only to provide at least one stable political forcre that can work effectively over the next few years.

[jeremyp]

Why can't we train our own people and stop sponging off others?

These are unskilled workers we are talking about.

[L.A.]

Why can't we train our own people and stop sponging off others?

Maybe because they much prefer to 'sponge off others' than be trained and we have too many Do-Gooders' who insist that they have a perfect right to do so?

[ProfessorDavey]

Why can't we train our own people and stop sponging off others?

In many cases the ability to train people requires them to be trained by the very best, and therefore by definition buy talent from across the globe.

So academia and academic research is a great example - it is a global endeavour and therefore if you are trained only by the narrow talent pool represented by people born in the UK, then your training and experience will be very narrow. And your training and ability to rise to the very top will be limited.

The best people want to study at the best universities and the best universities are the ones that themselves attract the very best talent from the widest talent pool regardless of nationality and place of birth.

I am really proud that in the department where I work (and until recently lead) our academic faculty (about 55 people) is massively international, and includes 23 different nationalities. So that I can be 'named and shamed' there are 23 british born people of those 55.

[Harrowby Hall]

I think that the situation you describe,  ProfD, is self evident. Universities are places of excellence and excellence is a commodity which respects no boundaries.

In the part of the world where I live, agriculture is a major industry and it employs a substantial number of people from east and central Europe. These people work hard and diligently ensuring food can be delivered to shops. I suspect that people such as these are the targets of Jack Knave's indignation.

One reason so many immigrant workers are employed is that many local people refuse to do this work - considering it to be beneath their capabilities, Or they want to work indoors  in comfort and not outside in all weather conditions. If east and central Europeans do not continue  to come to this country then food may become largely imported.

One thing I have been told about immigrant workers - but have no idea whether it is true or not - is that some are students doing courses in agriculture and their visit to this country is seen as a useful way of gaining work experience.

[Jack Knave]

These are unskilled workers we are talking about.

In that case we don't need foreigners!

[L.A.]

In that case we don't need foreigners!

The problem is that a large number of our 'unskilled' don't want to be workers!

[Jack Knave]

In many cases the ability to train people requires them to be trained by the very best, and therefore by definition buy talent from across the globe.

So academia and academic research is a great example - it is a global endeavour and therefore if you are trained only by the narrow talent pool represented by people born in the UK, then your training and experience will be very narrow. And your training and ability to rise to the very top will be limited.

The best people want to study at the best universities and the best universities are the ones that themselves attract the very best talent from the widest talent pool regardless of nationality and place of birth.

I am really proud that in the department where I work (and until recently lead) our academic faculty (about 55 people) is massively international, and includes 23 different nationalities. So that I can be 'named and shamed' there are 23 british born people of those 55.

You sound as if you have thrown in the towel and given up. No wonder Britain has been going down hill with people like you in it!

[ProfessorDavey]

You sound as if you have thrown in the towel and given up. No wonder Britain has been going down hill with people like you in it!

What on earth are you talking about.

In what way is it 'throwing the towel' to attract the very best talent to come and work in Britain, to contribute to a fantastically vibrant research environment, to help make our Universities the envy of the world, to ensure our students can study with the very best academics and to contribute massively to UK PLC.

I'd rather be in the Premier league than mouldering in the third division which is what you seem to want.

[Aruntraveller]

The problem is that a large number of our 'unskilled' don't want to be workers!

The only vaguely uplifting thing I am taking from this at the moment is that, maybe, just maybe, May and her incompetents might just drag people from in front of Jeremy Kyle and drop them into fields in Lincolnshire and make them pick cabbages for the minimum wage.

you know Jack the kind of jobs that farmers, despite trying, cannot get British people to do.

[Jack Knave]

What on earth are you talking about.

In what way is it 'throwing the towel' to attract the very best talent to come and work in Britain, to contribute to a fantastically vibrant research environment, to help make our Universities the envy of the world, to ensure our students can study with the very best academics and to contribute massively to UK PLC.

I'd rather be in the Premier league than mouldering in the third division which is what you seem to want.

So I ask again, why can't we train our own instead of sponging off the world?

[Jack Knave]

The only vaguely uplifting thing I am taking from this at the moment is that, maybe, just maybe, May and her incompetents might just drag people from in front of Jeremy Kyle and drop them into fields in Lincolnshire and make them pick cabbages for the minimum wage.

you know Jack the kind of jobs that farmers, despite trying, cannot get British people to do.

The issue in the referendum was about control of immigration not stopping it wholesale.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jackie boy,

So I ask again, why can't we train our own instead of sponging off the world?

I agree with you, but that would need a government who invest, invest in people.

The issue in the referendum was about control of immigration not stopping it wholesale.

Yes! It was this government who made it an issue, they bragged about reducing immigration when they knew they couldn't, but that goes back to your first question, the government forgot to invest in our people, so our people saw those bloody immigrants coming over and taking our houses and jobs, our people needed an outlet for their anger and our government was quite happy to allow that to happen, now it has come back to bite them on the bottom, they reap what they sow.

Tory fiasco from start to finish.

Gonnagle.

[floo]

Without the immigrants Britain would be up the creek without a paddle. We need incomers to staff the NHS, for instance.

[Aruntraveller]

The issue in the referendum was about control of immigration not stopping it wholesale.

Glad to hear you given up that it was the load of nonsense about sovereignty.

The fact still remains that one of the drivers for workers coming in from the EU was the lack of indigenous people who were prepared to get out and work in jobs that they didn't want to do. So we either pay more in the fields, factories etc. and therefore propel inflation even higher than it is already set to become due to the devaluation of the pound - or we stop producing things and import them therefore propelling inflation even highe. At that point it becomes a lose-lose scenario.

Or we could just be sensible and allow workers from the EU to come here and do the jobs that UKIP supporters are too lazy to get off their arses to do.

[JP]

Mass immigration was started by labour.

[Hope]

We need incomers to staff the NHS, for instance.

Should we be 'needing' them, Floo?  Why can't we train our own folkk to staff the NHS?  Why do we have to take the best of other nations' medics and nurses - thus leaving their equivalent services bereft of staff?

[Nearly Sane]

Should we be 'needing' them, Floo?  Why can't we train our own folkk to staff the NHS?  Why do we have to take the best of other nations' medics and nurses - thus leaving their equivalent services bereft of staff?

one reason would have been demographics. If you have an increasingly elderly population, there simply wouldn't be the number to staff the NHS, remembering that any staff trained here can and do move abroad as well. Further we don't just train 'our own folk' here but also many from elsewhere.  If we were being a net exporter of training but importing staff from places where the demographic squezzes was not happening then it does not leave them 'bereft' rather is advantageous for both.

[Anchorman]

Another wee pointer to why immigration should be devolved. Scotland continues to welcome all, from whatever ethnic minority. We're a Jock Tamsons' bairns. Most of us are baffled by Westminster xenophobia.

[Gordon]

Another wee pointer to why immigration should be devolved. Scotland continues to welcome all, from whatever ethnic minority. We're a Jock Tamsons' bairns. Most of us are baffled by Westminster xenophobia.

Yep - the immigration aspect of Brexshit is one I struggle with. It comes across as xenophobia, and if the argument is that the situation is different south of the border then clearly the approach we see from the pro-Brexshit folk isn't transferable to Scotland.

So we need a different approach here, probably best served by leaving the rUK to Brexshitting without us being dragged into the farce against our wishes.

I see on the BBC yet more fudging over runways around London and one wonders if such indesiveness coupled with the lemmingitis of Brexshit is a sign of nobody actually knowing what they are doing else someone would stop this madness and put the likes of Fox, Davies and others somewhere where they can play amongst themselves without dragging the rest of us into their fantasy.