The iniquity of the Catholic church

[Hope]

I think you are misunderstanding the problem. The problem is not that RC priests are more likely to abuse children than anybody else - I couldn't tell you if that is true or not. The problem is twofold.

• The RC church sets itself up as God's moral authority on Earth. As such, its priests should be setting an example. What credibility do the RC church's moral missives have if its own employees can't keep to them.
• (This is the biggy.) The RC actively protected its priests from facing justice. It covered up instances o child abuse that it knew about. That is morally reprehensible.

And I think you're also missing the point, jeremy.  We now know that over the years, a number of organisations, religious and otherwise, have actively protected their 'employees' from such accusations.  To consistently pick out the same one such organisation - as Floo is prone to do every few months - is effectively hiding the reality: that the problem occurs across society; that it is a minority of any particular group of people who are involved in it; that it involves both men and women; and finally that it is a blight on society and one that suggests that society isn't as developed as it likes to believe.

The RCC isn't the only organisation that sets itself up as either God's moral authority on earth or a humanist or secular equivalent - yet they too have similar issues to contend with.

[jjohnjil]

And I think you're also missing the point, jeremy.  We now know that over the years, a number of organisations, religious and otherwise, have actively protected their 'employees' from such accusations.  To consistently pick out the same one such organisation - as Floo is prone to do every few months - is effectively hiding the reality: that the problem occurs across society; that it is a minority of any particular group of people who are involved in it; that it involves both men and women; and finally that it is a blight on society and one that suggests that society isn't as developed as it likes to believe.

The RCC isn't the only organisation that sets itself up as either God's moral authority on earth or a humanist or secular equivalent - yet they too have similar issues to contend with.

I trust you can name these other organisations, Hope, that not only keep secret the abuse carried out by their employees, but then move them to new locations where they can carry on abusing!

An organisation that professes to be above such disgusting morality ...and has the gall to stand high up before it's captive audience every week and preach 'righteousness' ... that expects its followers to confess their sins every week! 

What hypocrisy!

[jeremyp]

And I think you're also missing the point, jeremy.  We now know that over the years, a number of organisations, religious and otherwise, have actively protected their 'employees' from such accusations.

The name of that fallacy is called Tu Quoque. The existence of other organisations that have similar problems does nothing to absolve the Catholic Church.

Try to keep your posts on topic.

The RCC isn't the only organisation that sets itself up as either God's moral authority on earth or a humanist or secular equivalent - yet they too have similar issues to contend with.

Really? Perhaps you can tell me which humanist organisation has set itself up as God's moral authority on Earth? I think you'll find none have.

Now, try to keep to the topic, which is the Catholic Church. If you want to talk about any other organisation, feel free to start another thread about it.

[Hope]

The name of that fallacy is called Tu Quoque. The existence of other organisations that have similar problems does nothing to absolve the Catholic Church.

Lest you have ignored or missed that veryt same point in previous posts of mine, I haven't attempted to absolve the Catholic Church, jeremy.  What I've done is point out that Floo seems to believe or seems keen to make out that this is a problem unique to the RCC.  There are many organisations who have just as much moral duty to do good by our children (and other vulnerable folk), but have signally failed to do over time - yet time after time Floo seems determined to sweep all that under the proverbial carpet.

Try to keep your posts on topic.

Try not to let your confirmation bias show.

Really? Perhaps you can tell me which humanist organisation has set itself up as God's moral authority on Earth? I think you'll find none have.

Try reading posts properly; as I said there are many other organisations who have set themselves up as the equivalent of God's moral authority on the Earth - in other words, they have used their own moral compass as their benchmark and have similarly failed to abide by those benchmarks.  Something to do with human nature, I believe.

Now, try to keep to the topic, which is the Catholic Church. If you want to talk about any other organisation, feel free to start another thread about it.

No, I will keep the thread on track by making sure that it covers all the organisation that fail in their moral duty not simply one organisation that Floo insists on picking on every few months.  If you would rather sweep the reality under the carpet, that's your look-out.

[Gordon]

Lest you have ignored or missed that veryt same point in previous posts of mine, I haven't attempted to absolve the Catholic Church, jeremy.  What I've done is point out that Floo seems to believe or seems keen to make out that this is a problem unique to the RCC.  There are many organisations who have just as much moral duty to do good by our children (and other vulnerable folk), but have signally failed to do over time - yet time after time Floo seems determined to sweep all that under the proverbial carpet.

What organisations are you referring to, and in what ways is the conduct of these organisations directly comparable to the RCC situation?

Try reading posts properly; as I said there are many other organisations who have set themselves up as the equivalent of God's moral authority on the Earth - in other words, they have used their own moral compass as their benchmark and have similarly failed to abide by those benchmarks.

Again what organisations are comparable to the RCC as regards the abuse of children and subsequent covering-up said abuse?

No, I will keep the thread on track by making sure that it covers all the organisation that fail in their moral duty not simply one organisation that Floo insists on picking on every few months.  If you would rather sweep the reality under the carpet, that's your look-out.

Fine, so in the interests of reality you should now name and shame these other organisations and describe the conduct that compares with the RCC situation. I do hope this isn't one of your tu quoque inspired generalisations.

[Owlswing]

I trust you can name these other organisations, Hope, that not only keep secret the abuse carried out by their employees, but then move them to new locations where they can carry on abusing!

An organisation that professes to be above such disgusting morality ...and has the gall to stand high up before it's captive audience every week and preach 'righteousness' ... that expects its followers to confess their sins every week! 

What hypocrisy!

Very well said! Saved me from having to post it!

[Sassy]

The parents abandoned their daughters to the Magdalene nuns because the parents were Catholic and they followed the demands of the priests etc of the Catholic church.

The Catholic Chrurch which is part of the Christian faith. They worship the same God and revere the same Jesus Christ as you do!

They certainly do not...
"Go away, I never knew you".  It was not Christ or Love which motivated those parents or the religion they belonged to.

As the saying goes.... "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." and they instead judged them and punished them. "Love covers over many sins" but there was certainly NOTHING Christian about what they did.

[Owlswing]

They certainly do not...
"Go away, I never knew you".  It was not Christ or Love which motivated those parents or the religion they belonged to.

As the saying goes.... "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." and they instead judged them and punished them. "Love covers over many sins" but there was certainly NOTHING Christian about what they did.

Of course, I forgot! No Christian would act like that would they?

YES! They would and yes they did and even you cannot whitewash the followers of your God who act like their and your God - vindictive, bloody minded and at tlmes totally heartless - read youir Bible - your God can be a right bastard - why should his followers be any different. Not all of them and not all the time - but he is and they are!

[Sassy]

Of course, I forgot! No Christian would act like that would they?

YES! They would and yes they did and even you cannot whitewash the followers of your God who act like their and your God - vindictive, bloody minded and at tlmes totally heartless - read youir Bible - your God can be a right bastard - why should his followers be any different. Not all of them and not all the time - but he is and they are!

You and I, both know the above is a load of tripe.
If an atheist, or even if a pagan, I would not own up to writing the above.
It looks so bitter and the words of a desperate person who has no way of winning their argument. Is it any wonder people do evil and blame it on everyone but themselves?

[Owlswing]

You and I, both know the above is a load of tripe.
If an atheist, or even if a pagan, I would not own up to writing the above.
It looks so bitter and the words of a desperate person who has no way of winning their argument. Is it any wonder people do evil and blame it on everyone but themselves?

I know nothing of the sort!

You know damn well that for you to admit the truth of my words is to tear down the entire structure of your belief in the loving God of the Christians.

I am just glad that I will not have to suffer the level of disappointment that you inevitably will if you find that you are wrong; at least I am prepared to consider that I might well be wrong and my faith in the Summerlands is in error. I just hope that I do not meet your God because my first, and probably last, act in Christian Heaven will be to kick the sod tht is your God in the nads! And, if I wind up in Christian Hell, at least I am going to meet up again with some old friends who also rejected Christianity because they also found that its God was the very antithesis of the advertised product.

Farewell Sassy

[Sassy]

I know nothing of the sort!

You know damn well that for you to admit the truth of my words is to tear down the entire structure of your belief in the loving God of the Christians.

NO! it is you who knows that you cannot tear down the truth that followers of Christ, do as he did. In no way on Gods earth can you relate anything which happened in the history of that one religion to the teachings of Christ. So you fail.

I am just glad that I will not have to suffer the level of disappointment that you inevitably will if you find that you are wrong;

Where is your atheist logic and belief? If there was no God and no Christ then all there is, is death and the end. So by your own beliefs how could anyone suffer disappointment?
You haven't even thought through what you are claiming. It makes man accountable for all the evil and suffering. So does that make you responsible for the sins of men in the past?
Since Christ many have tried to claim they are true Christians. The Roman Catholic Church originally seized on a way to keep the Roman Empire power somehow alive. But you cannot take the Kingdom of Heaven by force or make it a religion by force. The gates of hell cannot prevail against the true Kingdom because like Christ they love God and love others.

at least I am prepared to consider that I might well be wrong and my faith in the Summerlands is in error. I just hope that I do not meet your God because my first, and probably last, act in Christian Heaven will be to kick the sod tht is your God in the nads!

You mean you haven't clicked... That belief is about those being good in their life going to such a place. But it is created it is a cruel trick by Satan who tries to turn all mankind against God.

And, if I wind up in Christian Hell, at least I am going to meet up again with some old friends who also rejected Christianity because they also found that its God was the very antithesis of the advertised product.

Farewell Sassy

I suppose we look for different things. I look for truth and the end of suffering by one life and then to God in the resurrected life in a perfect world/heaven.

Revelation 21:4“And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.”

In your belief you keep being reborn into a world of mans own suffering.

Which belief is really the kindest and most loving?

Could you be fooled into thinking you can ever be good of yourselves in a world where evil is always done and the good ridiculed and insulted?

[floo]

Lest you have ignored or missed that veryt same point in previous posts of mine, I haven't attempted to absolve the Catholic Church, jeremy.  What I've done is point out that Floo seems to believe or seems keen to make out that this is a problem unique to the RCC.  There are many organisations who have just as much moral duty to do good by our children (and other vulnerable folk), but have signally failed to do over time - yet time after time Floo seems determined to sweep all that under the proverbial carpet.
Try not to let your confirmation bias show.
Try reading posts properly; as I said there are many other organisations who have set themselves up as the equivalent of God's moral authority on the Earth - in other words, they have used their own moral compass as their benchmark and have similarly failed to abide by those benchmarks.  Something to do with human nature, I believe.
No, I will keep the thread on track by making sure that it covers all the organisation that fail in their moral duty not simply one organisation that Floo insists on picking on every few months.  If you would rather sweep the reality under the carpet, that's your look-out.

I have never denied that other organisations, both religious and secular, have been responsible of abuse, but the CC seems unique in the way it has consistently covered up the abuse. 

[Alan Burns]

An organisation that professes to be above such disgusting morality ...and has the gall to stand high up before it's captive audience every week and preach 'righteousness' ... that expects its followers to confess their sins every week! 

What hypocrisy!

I believe the moral rules of the RC church are directly inspired by God through the power of His Holy Spirit.  They are not man made rules.  The divine authority of the RC church is directly inherited from the authority given to Peter when Jesus told him "Thou art  Peter and upon this rock I will build my church."

The fact that there are some within the RC church who deliberately flout the rules is not a valid reason to decry the value of these rules.  There are millions of Roman Catholics who sincerely accept that these are the rules which God wants us to follow, and with the help of God's grace they try to adhere to them, and in doing so will discover the amazing joy of doing God's will in their lives.  A joy which will never be known to those who use the church for their own selfish aims.

[ippy]

I believe the moral rules of the RC church are directly inspired by God through the power of His Holy Spirit.  They are not man made rules.  The divine authority of the RC church is directly inherited from the authority given to Peter when Jesus told him "Thou art  Peter and upon this rock I will build my church."

The fact that there are some within the RC church who deliberately flout the rules is not a valid reason to decry the value of these rules.  There are millions of Roman Catholics who sincerely accept that these are the rules which God wants us to follow, and with the help of God's grace they try to adhere to them, and in doing so will discover the amazing joy of doing God's will in their lives.  A joy which will never be known to those who use the church for their own selfish aims.

Indoctrination works on a percentage basis, some are more affected by this process than others.

ippy

[floo]

There is nothing moral about the Biblical god, so the Catholic Church would certainly be following in its footsteps. After all it is supposed to have got an unmarried girl pregnant!

[jjohnjil]

I believe the moral rules of the RC church are directly inspired by God through the power of His Holy Spirit.  They are not man made rules.  The divine authority of the RC church is directly inherited from the authority given to Peter when Jesus told him "Thou art  Peter and upon this rock I will build my church."

The fact that there are some within the RC church who deliberately flout the rules is not a valid reason to decry the value of these rules.  There are millions of Roman Catholics who sincerely accept that these are the rules which God wants us to follow, and with the help of God's grace they try to adhere to them, and in doing so will discover the amazing joy of doing God's will in their lives.  A joy which will never be known to those who use the church for their own selfish aims.

Alan

While I respect your right to any belief you have in your church, your belief that the rules the RC lay down were inspired by God - as an atheist -obviously, I must disagree.  I believe those rules were made in order to have some sort of control over ancient Rome's vast empire.  It suited the Emperor to have a vision - most dictators do.
If you do no more than study the popes during those two millennia, it is pretty clear that the majority of them were the equivalent of Mafia chiefs. The poor suckers who believed it all lived in hovels while the priesthood lived in comparative luxury.  Just look at the wealth and splendour of the Vatican and compare that with the way Jesus was supposed to have lived.  They built cathedrals that no state today could ever afford to build, while the top men had palaces built for themselves.  What on earth this had to do with Christ's teachings is beyond me!

No, i'm afraid, iike the vast majority of religions, Alan, the RC threatened people with eternal Hell if they disobeyed the rules and bribed them with everlasting heavenly bliss if they obeyed.  They knew that once those suckers were dead there was no one going to ask for their money back or put in any complaints.  A perfect set-up!

So if you find some comfort in your belief, Alan, I'm happy for you, but don't go on to forums if you're not prepared to have those beliefs challenged.   . 

[jeremyp]

Lest you have ignored or missed that veryt same point in previous posts of mine, I haven't attempted to absolve the Catholic Church, jeremy.  What I've done is point out that Floo seems to believe or seems keen to make out that this is a problem unique to the RCC.

The systematic cover up seems to be more or less unique to the RCC.

as I said there are many other organisations who have set themselves up as the equivalent of God's moral authority on the Earth

Name one.

[jeremyp]

I believe the moral rules of the RC church are directly inspired by God through the power of His Holy Spirit.  They are not man made rules.

Yes they are.

The divine authority of the RC church is directly inherited from the authority given to Peter when Jesus told him "Thou art  Peter and upon this rock I will build my church."

Which rules are directly inherited from Peter? Did Peter tell us that priests are meant to be celibate or that abortion and contraception is wrong?

The fact that there are some within the RC church who deliberately flout the rules is not a valid reason to decry the value of these rules.

It's the same group of men that flouted the rules that are making them up. They are not to be trusted.

[Hope]

I believe the moral rules of the RC church are directly inspired by God through the power of His Holy Spirit.  They are not man made rules.

I'd have to disagree to a degree, Alan.  For instance, there is absolutely no God-given instruction on celibacy of the priesthood - this is something that came into being in about the 12th century, as far as a definitive requirement.  If you look at RC practice, some ideas are based on human thinking, not on Biblical bases.

[Hope]

The systematic cover up seems to be more or less unique to the RCC.

Well, you seem to forget the cover ups that have taken place in local authority social service programmes, political groupings and media organisations.

Name one.

In this particular context, the NSPCC and Parliament come to mind.

[Anchorman]

I'd have to disagree to a degree, Alan.  For instance, there is absolutely no God-given instruction on celibacy of the priesthood - this is something that came into being in about the 12th century, as far as a definitive requirement.  If you look at RC practice, some ideas are based on human thinking, not on Biblical bases.

I'd concur, Hope. While in no way detracting from the very genuine faith of RC Christians, I find it hard to explain how the medieval and renaisssance Papacy was anything other than a wine soaked political in fight between certain Italian families, the corruption and veniality culminating in thre scandalous sale of indulgences - for which there is absolutely not one jot (or even tittle) of permission in Scripture.

[Alan Burns]

I'd have to disagree to a degree, Alan.  For instance, there is absolutely no God-given instruction on celibacy of the priesthood - this is something that came into being in about the 12th century, as far as a definitive requirement.  If you look at RC practice, some ideas are based on human thinking, not on Biblical bases.

I understand your point of view, but I believe in the power of the Holy Spirit to guide His church on earth.  I know some teachings are difficult to accept, but I concur with the thoughts of St Peter when he says, "Lord, where else can I go?".  The alternative of relying on human intellect with all its potential failings is not an option I can trust.

[Alan Burns]

I'd concur, Hope. While in no way detracting from the very genuine faith of RC Christians, I find it hard to explain how the medieval and renaisssance Papacy was anything other than a wine soaked political in fight between certain Italian families, the corruption and veniality culminating in thre scandalous sale of indulgences - for which there is absolutely not one jot (or even tittle) of permission in Scripture.

I can't let historical accounts detract from the reality I perceive, which is that every pope I have personally experienced, from Pious 12th to the present, have all been devoted holy men inspired to serve God and the people of the church.

[Gordon]

The alternative of relying on human intellect with all its potential failings is not an option I can trust.

Yet you trust human intellect every time you, for example, get on an aeroplane (as you did recently, iirc).

[Alan Burns]

Yet you trust human intellect every time you, for example, get on an aeroplane (as you did recently, iirc).

Flying an aeroplane is on a vastly different level to discerning the spiritual truths which reveal the reason for our existence.