The iniquity of the Catholic church

[Nearly Sane]

Flying an aeroplane is on a vastly different level to discerning the spiritual truths which reveal the reason for our existence.

indeed one has evidence, the other has your assertion

[Gordon]

Flying an aeroplane is on a vastly different level to discerning the spiritual truths which reveal the reason for our existence.

How are you measuring these 'levels'?

Nice to know that you chaps dealing in 'spiritual truths' know the 'reason for our existence', which is what exactly?

[Anchorman]

I can't let historical accounts detract from the reality I perceive, which is that every pope I have personally experienced, from Pious 12th to the present, have all been devoted holy men inspired to serve God and the people of the church.

Fair enough, Alan;
While I don't accept episcopacy as my form of church governance, nor recognise rank or heirarchy, I can relate to the personal faith of these men.
However you must concede the scandal of the RC Church in post medieval Europe, and the horror of the inquisition - in which the Gospel played very little part.
There is no perfect church.

[Owlswing]

In this particular context, the NSPCC and Parliament come to mind.

Please give specific cases, giving full details of those cases, in which the NSPCC systenatically covered up cases of child rape by its employees and the systematically moved them around to ensure that they were never prosecuted in a court of law for their crimes.

As I understand it the cases involving Parliamentarians who have been accused of child abuse are still under investigation, and, in view of the fact that most of those accused are dead, it is the fact that the supposed/alledged victims kept silent for so long that has prevented prosecution not any action by Parliament.

All persons who, again allegedly, hindered or prevented investigations at the time are also dead, so none of the accused are able to defend themselves against these allegations regardless of the truth or otherwise of the accusations against them.

Guilty or innocent they are easy targets, like to por bastard who was exonerated of all charges but his family did not find out he had been exonerated until after his death.

The Catholic priests accused are still alive and practicing within the Church.   

[Khatru]

Of course there was always Pope Pius IX who condemned any notion that the Pontiff ought to "come to terms with progress, liberalism and modern civilisation".

http://www.saint-mike.org/library/papal_library/piusix/encyclicals/nostis_et_nobiscum.html


Furthermore, let's not forget how the Catholic Church argued against free thinkers and enlightened men who were proclaiming that all men were created equal.

In 1878 they strongly objected to the idea of equality for all men.

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13apost.htm

[Owlswing]

Of course there was always Pope Pius IX who condemned any notion that the Pontiff ought to "come to terms with progress, liberalism and modern civilisation".

http://www.saint-mike.org/library/papal_library/piusix/encyclicals/nostis_et_nobiscum.html

Furthermore, let's not forget how the Catholic Church argued against free thinkers and enlightened men who were proclaiming that all men were created equal.

In 1878 they strongly objected to the idea of equality for all men.

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13apost.htm

If ever there was an organisation that needed, no, required, as a matter of urgency, dragging kicking, screaming, and fighting ito the 21st Century it is the Roman Catholic Church with the rest of the Christian religious groups not that far behind.

[Alan Burns]

Fair enough, Alan;
While I don't accept episcopacy as my form of church governance, nor recognise rank or heirarchy, I can relate to the personal faith of these men.
However you must concede the scandal of the RC Church in post medieval Europe, and the horror of the inquisition - in which the Gospel played very little part.
There is no perfect church.

My personal take on the scandals, both past and present, in the RC church is evidence of the Devil at work in trying to bring down God's church.  I put my trust in the faith of genuine believers, and in God's saving grace, to ensure that our church survives.

[Sassy]

The subject should be " The iniquity of the ROMAN Catholic church.

The apostles creed clearly states: I believe in the Holy Catholic Church so saying the universal church. The Church of England is the Holy Catholic Church and it applies to all Christian denominations.

There is no CATHOLIC Church which is individually and solely Catholic.

There is the Roman Catholic and the English Catholic Churches... but they are Christian by faith but not all hold the true beliefs of the true Church of Christ.

[floo]

The subject should be " The iniquity of the ROMAN Catholic church.

The apostles creed clearly states: I believe in the Holy Catholic Church so saying the universal church. The Church of England is the Holy Catholic Church and it applies to all Christian denominations.

There is no CATHOLIC Church which is individually and solely Catholic.

There is the Roman Catholic and the English Catholic Churches... but they are Christian by faith but not all hold the true beliefs of the true Church of Christ.

No one has the 'TRUTH', including you Sass!

[floo]

I'd have to disagree to a degree, Alan.  For instance, there is absolutely no God-given instruction on celibacy of the priesthood - this is something that came into being in about the 12th century, as far as a definitive requirement.  If you look at RC practice, some ideas are based on human thinking, not on Biblical bases.

Why does the Catholic church allow married Anglican Priests who convert act as priests if the celibacy rule is sacrosanct?

[ad_orientem]

Why does the Catholic church allow married Anglican Priests who convert act as priests if the celibacy rule is sacrosanct?

Because married men have always been accepted into the priesthood. Yet it has always been the case that unmarried men who enter the priesthood may not marry. Rome chooses only to accept unmarried men, with only a few exceptions.

[Harrowby Hall]

Why does the Catholic church allow married Anglican Priests who convert act as priests if the celibacy rule is sacrosanct?

Not quite.

The Roman Catholic Church is - to an extent - a federation of churches which accept the supremacy of the Bishop of Rome as pope.
It is only in the majority (large majority) Latin rite that celibacy is the rule. There are churches in this federation where priests may be married, though not - I believe - bishops and abbots.

It should not be forgotten that celibacy was imposed to prevent married priests from leaving church property to their offspring.

[Sebastian Toe]

My personal take on the scandals, both past and present, in the RC church is evidence of the Devil at work in trying to bring down God's church.

I'm curious.  How exactly does the Devil go about his 'business'?

[floo]

Because married men have always been accepted into the priesthood. Yet it has always been the case that unmarried men who enter the priesthood may not marry. Rome chooses only to accept unmarried men, with only a few exceptions.

How very unfair and stupid!!!!!

[ippy]

My personal take on the scandals, both past and present, in the RC church is evidence of the Devil at work in trying to bring down God's church.  I put my trust in the faith of genuine believers, and in God's saving grace, to ensure that our church survives.

Your personal take Alan?

More the take of the strong belief, so successfully indoctrinated into you from such an early age by your beloved R C church.

ippy

[Anchorman]

I'm a wee bit curious, Alan.
Would this 'devil's work' in the Middle Ages and rennaisance really hold up?
Why would God, if He thought the RC church was a great example of faith, allow venial, corrupt men to claim to be Christ's vicar on earth - whatever that means?
Why would He allow generations of Europeans to suffer and labour to finance this veniality in what was supposed to be His Holy City?
Why would He allow the abhorrance of the Conquistadores, Inquisition, etc?

Or was God really preparing the way for Luther?

You see, just attributing the corruption to the devil is a bit of a cop out.
In reality, the Western Church, modelled as it was on the civil structures of Imperial Rome, became subject to all the flaws and opportunities inherant in that very system.
That system was not some divine ordination; simply the result of a very pragmatic Constantinian interferance with church governance, centralising power with all the possibilities of misuse of that power.

[ippy]

I'm a wee bit curious, Alan.
Would this 'devil's work' in the Middle Ages and renaissance really hold up?
Why would God, if He thought the RC church was a great example of faith, allow venial, corrupt men to claim to be Christ's vicar on earth - whatever that means?
Why would He allow generations of Europeans to suffer and labour to finance this veniality in what was supposed to be His Holy City?
Why would He allow the abhorrence of the Conquistadores, Inquisition, etc?

Or was God really preparing the way for Luther?
6
You see, just attributing the corruption to the devil is a bit of a cop out.
In reality, the Western Church, modelled as it was on the civil structures of Imperial Rome, became subject to all the flaws and opportunities inherent in that very system.
That system was not some divine ordination; simply the result of a very pragmatic Constantinian interference with church governance, centralising power with all the possibilities of misuse of that power.

You're response to Alan makes sense to me and probably most that post here on the forum, the only trouble with any response to Alan is that he's had decades of built in get out clauses hammered into his head; these religious organisations all have a catch 22 like answers for virtually any challenges or suggestions that you would like to put to them.

It's, in Alan's mind, no doubt your scribbling are being directed by the devil using your hand, yes, most of them are as far gone as that.

The only answer is to try to stop them in some way from getting at our very young children.

ippy

[Anchorman]

Hi, Ippy.
I have no issues with the essential Christianity of the RCC, but with its claims.
That those claims don't date to the first or second centuries - or even the third, but from a time when Rome was trying to become a central authority in the Western Church (just, ironically, as it was losing its grip on temporal power with the slow collappse of the Western Empire).
It took several centuries for this Roman supremacy to be recognised in most areas of the West (as many as four in what is now Britain) This speaks to me, not as some spiritual revelation, but a very human tendency to gather authority.
The Roman church had no such authority for the first two centuries of its' existance, being only one of many bishoprics, and not always the most important one at that.

[ippy]

Hi, Ippy.
I have no issues with the essential Christianity of the RCC, but with its claims.
That those claims don't date to the first or second centuries - or even the third, but from a time when Rome was trying to become a central authority in the Western Church (just, ironically, as it was losing its grip on temporal power with the slow collappse of the Western Empire).
It took several centuries for this Roman supremacy to be recognised in most areas of the West (as many as four in what is now Britain) This speaks to me, not as some spiritual revelation, but a very human tendency to gather authority.
The Roman church had no such authority for the first two centuries of its' existance, being only one of many bishoprics, and not always the most important one at that.

Whatever the history is of the RCC, doesn't lend it much in the way of validity.

Ippy

[Sassy]

Because married men have always been accepted into the priesthood. Yet it has always been the case that unmarried men who enter the priesthood may not marry. Rome chooses only to accept unmarried men, with only a few exceptions.

As we are all priests both men and women in the Church of Christ, it is pretty pointless isn't it as an exercise.  It is purely the Roman Catholic Church making it's own rules.


King James Bible
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
A royal priesthood both men and women.

How can someone become what they already are?

[Sassy]

My personal take on the scandals, both past and present, in the RC church is evidence of the Devil at work in trying to bring down God's church.  I put my trust in the faith of genuine believers, and in God's saving grace, to ensure that our church survives.

You don't believe the words of your own saviour?
The true Church of Christ IS NOT and NEVER HAS BEEN a denomination.
The Jews are the true Church and the we are grafted in it is their saviour and their religion.
God never made another church he simply established a new covenant to include all people.
And as Christ clearly taught...it is no longer about place..John 4. It is about those born of truth and the Spirit.

No one can replace the Jews and the gentiles being grafted in.

The builders are the true Church who rejected the important stone.



Even the gates of hell cannot prevail against the true Church.

King James Bible
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Peter recognised Jesus was the Christ the Messiah. Nothing prevails against the true Church.

[Alan Burns]

I'm curious.  How exactly does the Devil go about his 'business'?

Temptation

[Alan Burns]

I'm a wee bit curious, Alan.
Would this 'devil's work' in the Middle Ages and rennaisance really hold up?
Why would God, if He thought the RC church was a great example of faith, allow venial, corrupt men to claim to be Christ's vicar on earth - whatever that means?
Why would He allow generations of Europeans to suffer and labour to finance this veniality in what was supposed to be His Holy City?
Why would He allow the abhorrance of the Conquistadores, Inquisition, etc?

Or was God really preparing the way for Luther?

You see, just attributing the corruption to the devil is a bit of a cop out.
In reality, the Western Church, modelled as it was on the civil structures of Imperial Rome, became subject to all the flaws and opportunities inherant in that very system.
That system was not some divine ordination; simply the result of a very pragmatic Constantinian interferance with church governance, centralising power with all the possibilities of misuse of that power.

Whatever the causes of splits in the Christian churches, the main thing for us all to hold on to is the acceptance of Jesus as our saviour.

[Andy]

Temptation

https://youtu.be/xWwtMrDX2o8

I know, wrong thread, but it's how I read it.

[Nearly Sane]

https://youtu.be/xWwtMrDX2o8

I know, wrong thread, but it's how I read it.

Me too