Author Topic: Good for Desmond Tutu  (Read 6511 times)

floo

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Good for Desmond Tutu
« on: October 07, 2016, 01:54:48 PM »
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-37587290?ocid=socialflow_twitter&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=twitter

Archbishop Desmond Tutu has said he would like to have the right to an assisted death. I think everyone should have that right if they are terminally ill, or at the end of their natural life and wish it.

Brownie

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Re: Good for Desmond Tutu
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2016, 02:31:50 PM »
I admire Desmond Tutu, always have.  What he means by "Assisted Dying" is probably not the same as you mean, floo.

There is nothing wrong with giving a terminally ill patient sufficient medication to eliminate pain and discomfort.  Maybe someone who is chronically ill, if they want it. Hospices, the Macmillan team, Marie Curie, etc, do that.  The side effect may be that life is shortened - but that isn't the primary purpose.  I would want that and if it was not available, which is unlikely, I'd purchase illegal drugs to help me, with no qualms!  It's different to deliberately euthanasing someone, knowingly causing their death.

However we have been here before, countless times.
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floo

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Re: Good for Desmond Tutu
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2016, 02:54:03 PM »
I admire Desmond Tutu, always have.  What he means by "Assisted Dying" is probably not the same as you mean, floo.

There is nothing wrong with giving a terminally ill patient sufficient medication to eliminate pain and discomfort.  Maybe someone who is chronically ill, if they want it. Hospices, the Macmillan team, Marie Curie, etc, do that.  The side effect may be that life is shortened - but that isn't the primary purpose.  I would want that and if it was not available, which is unlikely, I'd purchase illegal drugs to help me, with no qualms!  It's different to deliberately euthanasing someone, knowingly causing their death.

However we have been here before, countless times.

I think Tutu knew exactly what he was saying and meant he wanted assistance to die, not just be out of pain.

ippy

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Re: Good for Desmond Tutu
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2016, 04:03:01 PM »
I admire Desmond Tutu, always have.  What he means by "Assisted Dying" is probably not the same as you mean, floo.

There is nothing wrong with giving a terminally ill patient sufficient medication to eliminate pain and discomfort.  Maybe someone who is chronically ill, if they want it. Hospices, the Macmillan team, Marie Curie, etc, do that.  The side effect may be that life is shortened - but that isn't the primary purpose.  I would want that and if it was not available, which is unlikely, I'd purchase illegal drugs to help me, with no qualms!  It's different to deliberately euthanising someone, knowingly causing their death.

However we have been here before, countless times.

Nothing wrong with anyone having that outlook Brownie, all 18% of you; however I do resent the tail wagging the dog, while the 82% of us have to visit Switzerland and only if we can afford it.

ippy

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Good for Desmond Tutu
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2016, 06:01:42 PM »
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-37587290?ocid=socialflow_twitter&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=twitter

Archbishop Desmond Tutu has said he would like to have the right to an assisted death. I think everyone should have that right if they are terminally ill, or at the end of their natural life and wish it.
That suggests coercion of medical staff at some point.

It's way to open for abuse by some well healed, well connected eejit with an inflated sense of entitlement to get a doctor or nurse struck of for being a bad doctor because they wouldn't end a life.

Brownie

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Re: Good for Desmond Tutu
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2016, 06:10:07 PM »
Nothing wrong with anyone having that outlook Brownie, all 18% of you; however I do resent the tail wagging the dog, while the 82% of us have to visit Switzerland and only if we can afford it.

ippy

Why will you have to visit Switzerland when pain relief and proper care of the dying is available here, free of charge?  I'd far rather be cared for tenderly by those who are committed to easing the last days of very sick people than go somewhere cold to be exterminated by someone paid to do only that.
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Anchorman

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Re: Good for Desmond Tutu
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2016, 06:25:51 PM »
Brownie: Ideally, yes, pain relief should be able to compensate as paliative medicine replaces that designed to 'cure' the sufferer. Ideally. It doesn't always work, though. I know one particular Christian lady who simply wants to die. The medication for Parkinsons' is useless; her mobility, sight, hearing, co-ordination and balance are at a horrific stage; the pain is beyond normal medication to control, and she cannot end her life - as she has expressed the desire to do so - frequently. The medics state that her major organs are still functioning reasonably well, and her prognosis is years, rather than months. Since all pain relief is useless, and she cannot coordinate her limbs in such a way that she could end her life, wouldn't assisted suicide be a practical, Christian alternative, should she request it?
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Bubbles

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Re: Good for Desmond Tutu
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2016, 08:21:47 PM »
Nothing wrong with anyone having that outlook Brownie, all 18% of you; however I do resent the tail wagging the dog, while the 82% of us have to visit Switzerland and only if we can afford it.

ippy

82% ?

Don't be silly Ippy!

Where did you get that figure from?

I think you invented it!

Brownie

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Re: Good for Desmond Tutu
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2016, 09:12:54 PM »
I didn't really understand what he meant either, Rose, even though I replied to him.
82% go to Switzerland, finances permitting, to be put down?  It's a new one on me.  Or perhaps he meant I am the 18% of the population who might be prepared to buy illegal narcotics if we felt it necessary :D;  ippy, I was only talking off the top of my head.  I wouldn't know where to go for them, even if I could afford them.  It was just a thought.

Anchorman, I have the greatest sympathy for the lady you mention.  I was closely involved with and helped care for an elderly Christian lady with Parkinsons.  Honesty, I believe the degenerative neurological diseases, of which there are many, are the very worst things one can get.   There's no easy answer.  The lady I knew, very well indeed, was given morphine for the last three weeks of her life, when she was bedridden.  Up until then she tried to make the most of her small world, which had gradually decreased, and was very well cared for and loved but at the end she was in distress and ready to go.   The medication certainly eased things for her.  A horrible illness though, something I fear, and there are other, similar, illnesses which can be even worse.
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Sebastian Toe

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Re: Good for Desmond Tutu
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2016, 09:41:08 PM »
There's no easy answer. 

Then give a difficult one?

Since all pain relief is useless, and she cannot coordinate her limbs in such a way that she could end her life, wouldn't assisted suicide be a practical, Christian alternative, should she request it?
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Enki

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Re: Good for Desmond Tutu
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2016, 09:54:51 PM »
Brownie: Ideally, yes, pain relief should be able to compensate as paliative medicine replaces that designed to 'cure' the sufferer. Ideally. It doesn't always work, though. I know one particular Christian lady who simply wants to die. The medication for Parkinsons' is useless; her mobility, sight, hearing, co-ordination and balance are at a horrific stage; the pain is beyond normal medication to control, and she cannot end her life - as she has expressed the desire to do so - frequently. The medics state that her major organs are still functioning reasonably well, and her prognosis is years, rather than months. Since all pain relief is useless, and she cannot coordinate her limbs in such a way that she could end her life, wouldn't assisted suicide be a practical, Christian alternative, should she request it?

Nice to see you back, Anchorman. :)  I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiments that you expressed above.
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Brownie

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Re: Good for Desmond Tutu
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2016, 09:57:51 PM »
I don't understand why the lady Anchorman is talking about is not given some strong medication, such as morphine, which would help her a great deal.  It really does ease the passage from life to death and isn't just used on patients with, eg, cancer.

What I would do, I do not know - except what I said earlier, take advantage of any medication even if it meant I slept most of the time.  I wouldn't care about that, quite happy to sleep and love feeling dopey and dreamy.
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Anchorman

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Re: Good for Desmond Tutu
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2016, 10:34:53 PM »
In this instance, Brownie, morphine and other opiates apparently react with other medication Mary is taking. Her life is not in any imminent danger of ending. She simply wants to end it at a time of her choosing. I'm not in favour of euthenasia, but in certain specific instances when the prognosis is unending misery, and the patient in full possession of their faculties, I cannot see a problem with assisted dying.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Anchorman

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Re: Good for Desmond Tutu
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2016, 10:41:58 PM »
Nice to see you back, Anchorman. :)  I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiments that you expressed above.
Cheers, Enki!
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Brownie

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Re: Good for Desmond Tutu
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2016, 11:07:12 PM »
In this instance, Brownie, morphine and other opiates apparently react with other medication

These poor people are often given a lot of unnecessary medication, imho.  A lot of it does nothing!
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Anchorman

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Re: Good for Desmond Tutu
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2016, 11:16:26 PM »
These poor people are often given a lot of unnecessary medication, imho.  A lot of it does nothing!







Possibly so - but some of her medication does mitigate the worst trembling and loss of limb control, incontinence, etc, and offer a little dignity, and that, apparantly, is the very drug whose effects opiates negate.
As a matter of fact, I visited her last week - along with my minister, to administer home communion...it's our communion season at the momment in our congregation. Although her body is shattered,useless and deteriorating, her relationship with God in Christ is not.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Brownie

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Re: Good for Desmond Tutu
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2016, 11:34:49 PM »
That's lovely Anchorman.  It's a very sad business but I am glad the meds do offer her at least some symptomatic relief.
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jeremyp

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Re: Good for Desmond Tutu
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2016, 12:55:18 PM »
I didn't really understand what he meant either, Rose, even though I replied to him.

It's pretty bleedin' obvious: Ippy has claimed that 82% of us are in favour of allowing assisted dying.

The figure comes from this story http://www.dignityindying.org.uk/press-release/poll-assisted-dying/


Quote
82% go to Switzerland, finances permitting, to be put down?
I think your deliberately pretending to misunderstand.

Quote
There's no easy answer.
Yes, there is. Grant these people their wishes and help them to die.
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jeremyp

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Re: Good for Desmond Tutu
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2016, 12:57:55 PM »
That's lovely Anchorman.  It's a very sad business but I am glad the meds do offer her at least some symptomatic relief.
But you also seem glad that she has to live her life in constant pain.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Good for Desmond Tutu
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2016, 01:23:08 PM »
It's pretty bleedin' obvious: Ippy has claimed that 82% of us are in favour of allowing assisted dying.

So that's 70% of us who couldn't give a shit and 10% who'd like to bump someone off and get away with it............

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Good for Desmond Tutu
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2016, 01:26:22 PM »
It's pretty bleedin' obvious: Ippy has claimed that 82% of us are in favour of allowing assisted dying.

Him and his blooming argumenta ad populum.

floo

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Re: Good for Desmond Tutu
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2016, 01:30:48 PM »
As I have mentioned before, when my father was terminally ill with prostate cancer in 2005 he was in a lot of pain which the meds weren't relieving. My siblings and I insisted he be giving a very strong dose of morphine, probably an overdose, we knew would end his life, which it did within hours. I supposed that could be described as an assisted death.

ippy

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Re: Good for Desmond Tutu
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2016, 03:37:06 PM »
Why will you have to visit Switzerland when pain relief and proper care of the dying is available here, free of charge?  I'd far rather be cared for tenderly by those who are committed to easing the last days of very sick people than go somewhere cold to be exterminated by someone paid to do only that.

If I'm ever in that unfortunate position I like 82% of the U K population would like to have the choice, which in turn would automatically  allow you your choice too, (Several polls came up with a similar figure).

If you don't agree with assisted dying that's fine don't get yourself involved with it.

Pain relief of course for anyone that wants it, I can't think of any reason I would want prevent those that want pain relief from from having it.

This area is one of the main areas where religions seem to think their religious views should over rule the views of any other moral and ethical outlook, well that's fine, stick to those rules if that's what you want, but don't impose them on to the rest of us.

As you must know, unless you're some kind of blind deaf hermit, if you reside here in the U K people that want to have some form of assisted dying, Switzerland is the nearest place for U K citizens with terminal illness or have other reasons to go to if they wish to die, that is only if they can afford it.
 
There were some polls taken at about the time assisted dying was being discussed in the H O C a while back, the 82% stuck in my mind I remember it clearly and all of the other polls were within three or four percentage points of the 82%. 

Don't make yourself worry to much Rose, I'll soon be shot down in flames if I'm wrong about the very high percentage of the U K population that would like to see some form of assisted dying here in the U K, in and on our statute books.

Considering Des is a religionist he still manages to be realistic about the differing ways of dealing with suffering, unlike a lot of the rest.
 
ippy

Brownie

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Re: Good for Desmond Tutu
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2016, 04:38:55 PM »
It's pretty bleedin' obvious: Ippy has claimed that 82% of us are in favour of allowing assisted dying.

The figure comes from this story http://www.dignityindying.org.uk/press-release/poll-assisted-dying/

I think your deliberately pretending to misunderstand.

Yes, there is. Grant these people their wishes and help them to die.

Oh jeremy, I wasn't being disingenuous - I would have put a winking smiley had that been the case.  I honestly didn't know what he meant never mind having any idea about the figures.  Another idea that floated through my head was that I may have inadvertently given ippy the idea that I was more well off than I am, being able to afford to buy non-prescription drugs, and that put me maybe in the top bracket income-wise and the rest in the smaller, tail-wagging group, so I wanted to dispel that just in case.

Of course, now you've explained it, it's obvious.   
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ippy

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Re: Good for Desmond Tutu
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2016, 06:17:33 PM »
Oh jeremy, I wasn't being disingenuous - I would have put a winking smiley had that been the case.  I honestly didn't know what he meant never mind having any idea about the figures.  Another idea that floated through my head was that I may have inadvertently given ippy the idea that I was more well off than I am, being able to afford to buy non-prescription drugs, and that put me maybe in the top bracket income-wise and the rest in the smaller, tail-wagging group, so I wanted to dispel that just in case.

Of course, now you've explained it, it's obvious.

Brownie, I have no thoughts about how much wealth you have or not, more of your just slightly misunderstanding?

The point is we've not got an option to take assisted dying here in the U K unless you have the financial means, to go somewhere where they do allow assisted dying and pay the fee, somewhere like Switzerland, having paid the fare to go to the Swiss clinic I think their fee is around the £6000 mark, Belgium has just passed something on this enlightened approach to assisted dying I'm not sure exactly what it is, because I only managed to hear the tail end of a report about that.

We should all have easy access assisted dying here in our own country, without involving such a heavy charge for doing so, (Wealthy or not).

If you have religious reasons for not taking the assisted dying option, that's fine too, don't take it, I wouldn't want to impose my point of view about assisted dying on you.

Do try to read thing through properly, we all get the wrong end of the stick from time to time, you seem to be going through a rather bad patch of misunderstandings at the mo.   

ippy

« Last Edit: October 08, 2016, 06:42:10 PM by ippy »