The New Covenant...Jeremiah 31:31-34

[Sassy]

Christ made a new covenant a covenant that was not like the old one God made with the Israelites.

The new covenant is foretold by the Prophets and put in place by the body and blood of  Christ Jesus, sacrifice.

So many atheists and even believers make the same mistake that the two can somehow represent one and the other.

Whether an atheist or a believer it is important you realise that the OLD Covenant God made with the Israelites (which still stands for anyone who wants to follow that), is not the New Covenant which God has made with mankind today in Christ.

It is important if addressing issues that everyone knows these separate Covenants are based on the truth given by God.

Jeremiah 31:31-34King James Version (KJV)

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

The New Covenant includes the House of Israel and the House of Judah. It also includes the Gentiles.
But more importantly it is a new covenant and Jeremiah 31:31-34 shows why it is different and how sins are forgiven.
So the Old Covenant has nothing in common with the new covenant. The Covenant with the Israelites was to make know the laws of sin in man which they were guilty of doing. It showed them what their sins were. Christ is the sacrifice which brings men to know God and live as God intended.

[Khatru]

Christ made a new covenant a covenant that was not like the old one God made with the Israelites.

Why did he make a new covenant?

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need to look for a second one."

Hebrews 8:7

There you have it, your own Bible says the first covenant was faulty.

Pretty sloppy for a perfect deity to produce a less-than-perfect covenant.

[Sassy]

Why did he make a new covenant?

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need to look for a second one."

Hebrews 8:7

There you have it, your own Bible says the first covenant was faulty.

Pretty sloppy for a perfect deity to produce a less-than-perfect covenant.

There are more than two covenants.

The covenant with Moses and the Israelites brought about God teaching the truth about sin.
In establishing the laws God showed man his sins.
When the law came man shown guilty of sin.
The second covenant took away the sin.

I guess you just cannot understand because you never read the bible or understood the relationships between man and God.
Very sloppy thinking on your part only really excused due to your ignorance about these matters.
Which I am not pleased about having to keep showing you.  I hope you will one day learn about the Jewish and Christian religion. No hard feelings, I hope.

[Khatru]

There are more than two covenants.

The covenant with Moses and the Israelites brought about God teaching the truth about sin.
In establishing the laws God showed man his sins.
When the law came man shown guilty of sin.
The second covenant took away the sin.

I guess you just cannot understand because you never read the bible or understood the relationships between man and God.
Very sloppy thinking on your part only really excused due to your ignorance about these matters.
Which I am not pleased about having to keep showing you.  I hope you will one day learn about the Jewish and Christian religion. No hard feelings, I hope.

No matter the number of covenants, the point I was making is that even the holy world of your god tells us that the first covenant was faulty.

You won't get any hard feelings from me and what's more, I won't even consider you damned to an eternity of pain and suffering for having a different worldview to me.  Can't be bad.

[Sassy]

No matter the number of covenants, the point I was making is that even the holy world of your god tells us that the first covenant was faulty.

Where does it say any covenant was faulty?
You are suggesting that and you are wrong because you don't understand what a covenant is and why it was made.

You won't get any hard feelings from me and what's more, I won't even consider you damned to an eternity of pain and suffering for having a different worldview to me.  Can't be bad.

You have continually lost your arguments and even now are still losing them. When are you going to stop making yourself look ridiculous. You got burnt but that is okay your wounds may remind you not to open your mouth/write till you do know in detail the subject being discussed. Glad no hard feelings...

[jjohnjil]

It would be nice if we could find out exactly what Christianity teaches.  Sassy, Sparky, Hope, TW, the various RC's, tell us the Bible teaches only what they individually think - and everyone else is ignorant.

When there's some sort of agreement between them, there may be a way forward.  I won't hold my breath though.

[Dicky Underpants]

It would be nice if we could find out exactly what Christianity teaches.  Sassy, Sparky, Hope, TW, the various RC's, tell us the Bible teaches only what they individually think - and everyone else is ignorant.

When there's some sort of agreement between them, there may be a way forward.  I won't hold my breath though.

I'd be happy if they'd openly acknowledge their differences. A lot of heated argumentation could be avoided if we didn't so often hear the mantram "Christians believe". This of course is an attempt to present a totally spurious front of concord among believers when arguing with atheists and agnostics.

[ad_orientem]

It would be nice if we could find out exactly what Christianity teaches.  Sassy, Sparky, Hope, TW, the various RC's, tell us the Bible teaches only what they individually think - and everyone else is ignorant.

When there's some sort of agreement between them, there may be a way forward.  I won't hold my breath though.

Sassy isn't a Christian. She's some sort of Arian. The Old Covenant is dead even for the Jews. It was nailed to the cross and died with Christ. We now have a new covenant as foretold by the prophets.

[Ricky Spanish]

Blah Blah Blah..

It is important if addressing issues that everyone knows these separate Covenants are based on the truth given by God.The New Covenant includes the House of Israel and the House of Judah. It also includes the Gentiles.

But more importantly it is a new covenant and Jeremiah 31:31-34 shows why it is different and how sins are forgiven.

Jeremiah 31:31-34King James Version (KJV)

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was a husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

So the Old Covenant has nothing in common with the new covenant. The Covenant with the Israelites was to make know the laws of sin in man which they were guilty of doing. It showed them what their sins were. Christ is the sacrifice which brings men to know God and live as God intended.

Care to point out where the "gentile/heathens" are included in your biblical quote?

[Sassy]

So the Old Covenant has nothing in common with the new covenant. The Covenant with the Israelites was to make know the laws of sin in man which they were guilty of doing. It showed them what their sins were. Christ is the sacrifice which brings men to know God and live as God intended.

Care to point out where the "gentile/heathens" are included in your biblical quote?

Christ made a new covenant a covenant that was not like the old one God made with the Israelites.

The new covenant is foretold by the Prophets and put in place by the body and blood of  Christ Jesus, sacrifice.

So many atheists and even believers make the same mistake that the two can somehow represent one and the other.

Whether an atheist or a believer it is important you realise that the OLD Covenant God made with the Israelites (which still stands for anyone who wants to follow that), is not the New Covenant which God has made with mankind today in Christ.

It is important if addressing issues that everyone knows these separate Covenants are based on the truth given by God.

You changed the original post of mine.

As you can see I used the quote to show the NEW Covenant would not be as the OLD Covenant.
I said the Prophets foretold the new covenant... Jeremiah being an example.

Amos 9:11-12King James Version (KJV)

11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:

12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the Lord that doeth this.

King James Bible
And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

King James Bible
And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.



Lastly read Isaiah 56.

The quote was to represent the New Covenant not the Gentiles. Having thought it self explanatory there was no difference between Jew and Gentile when in Christ the New Covenant.

[Sassy]

Sassy isn't a Christian. She's some sort of Arian. The Old Covenant is dead even for the Jews. It was nailed to the cross and died with Christ. We now have a new covenant as foretold by the prophets.

You haven't a clue. You don't know what your own church teaches:-

We hold the Jewish people in special regard because their covenant with God has never been revoked, for “the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable” (Rom 11:29). The Church, which shares with Jews an important part of the sacred Scriptures, looks upon the people of the covenant and their faith as one of the sacred roots of her own Christian identity (cf. Rom 11:16-18). As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God (cf. 1 Thes 1:9). With them, we believe in the one God who acts in history, and with them we accept his revealed word. (Evangelii Gaudium, no. 247)

Seems some think Paul revoked it but nothing suggest that in his teaching about living under the whole law and obeying it.
Christ certainly did not do away with the OLD Covenant and teachings of the Prophets.

Matthew 5:17-20King James Version (KJV)

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus or Paul.. you decide if the Jew is still a Jew. Abrahams Covenant is being fulfilled and all those covenants which follow are all part of Gods plan. If it isn't in the Jewish Scripture it had no place in the NT.

You are saying that the OLD Covenant where the Law was given is revoked?


As for being a Christian the only qualification is as Peter taught in Acts 10 and Jesus. For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER (ANYONE) who believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Who are you to judge me in Christ. Just as your church cannot make ups it's mind about the Old Covenant seems you cannot make up your mind what the bible teaches being a Christian really is.

[ad_orientem]

What does Rome have to do with me? It abandoned the faith of the Apostles many ages ago and your quote merely proves it is on the brink of apostasy, an example that it is dispensationalist in all but name.

The Apostle taught that the Law has gone and has been replaced by a better covenant. The Church is the one true Israel of God, Abraham's descendants by faith.

[jjohnjil]

Good job I didn't hold my breath!

[ippy]

Christ made a new covenant a covenant that was not like the old one God made with the Israelites.

The new covenant is foretold by the Prophets and put in place by the body and blood of  Christ Jesus, sacrifice.

So many atheists and even believers make the same mistake that the two can somehow represent one and the other.

Whether an atheist or a believer it is important you realise that the OLD Covenant God made with the Israelites (which still stands for anyone who wants to follow that), is not the New Covenant which God has made with mankind today in Christ.

It is important if addressing issues that everyone knows these separate Covenants are based on the truth given by God.The New Covenant includes the House of Israel and the House of Judah. It also includes the Gentiles.
But more importantly it is a new covenant and Jeremiah 31:31-34 shows why it is different and how sins are forgiven.
So the Old Covenant has nothing in common with the new covenant. The Covenant with the Israelites was to make know the laws of sin in man which they were guilty of doing. It showed them what their sins were. Christ is the sacrifice which brings men to know God and live as God intended.

Without evidence, this discussion has no more importance than a discussion held at a meeting of the Sherlock Holms Society, the only big difference is the Sherlock Holms discussion would be more interesting.

ippy

[Hope]

Pretty sloppy for a perfect deity to produce a less-than-perfect covenant.

Anyone can make a perfect covenant, but if the party they make the covenant with then abuse it, that's that party's look out - not that of the creator.

[Nearly Sane]

Anyone can make a perfect covenant, but if the party they make the covenant with then abuse it, that's that party's look out - not that of the creator.

that isn't perfect then.

[jjohnjil]

Anyone can make a perfect covenant, but if the party they make the covenant with then abuse it, that's that party's look out - not that of the creator.

It's funny how he gets the praise for all things bright and beautiful ... but for rest of the shit, it's a case of "Not me Guv!"

[Ricky Spanish]

Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah...

You said: "It is important if addressing issues that everyone knows these separate Covenants are based on the truth given by God.The New Covenant includes the House of Israel and the House of Judah. It also includes the Gentiles."

Jeremiah 31:31-34King James Version (KJV)

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was a husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Oh hing oan, yer quote says the EXACT OPPOSITE:

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Care to point out where the "gentile/heathens" are included in your biblical quote as being part of the New Covenant?

[Khatru]

Where does it say any covenant was faulty?
You are suggesting that and you are wrong because you don't understand what a covenant is and why it was made.

Ho hum.  Please go back a few posts...

http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=12690.msg640048#msg640048

Why did he make a new covenant?

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need to look for a second one."

Hebrews 8:7

There you have it, your own Bible says the first covenant was faulty.

Pretty sloppy for a perfect deity to produce a less-than-perfect covenant.

You have continually lost your arguments and even now are still losing them. When are you going to stop making yourself look ridiculous. You got burnt but that is okay your wounds may remind you not to open your mouth/write till you do know in detail the subject being discussed. Glad no hard feelings...

For me to lose any discussion with you would mean that you would have to answer the questions I asked rather than the questions you think I'm asking.

[Khatru]

Anyone can make a perfect covenant, but if the party they make the covenant with then abuse it, that's that party's look out - not that of the creator.

Wasn't Jesus the sacrificial lamb? 

Didn't his death remove the need for animal sacrifices to be made?

Who was it who instructed his followers to carry out blood sacrifices anyway?

Who liked the smell of burning animal flesh?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Always excuses for the Biblical god! It skewed up big time and should be made to pay for it, if it was responsible for creation!

Many have walked in as his supreme judge and have come away Pardoned by him.

[Hope]

Always excuses for the Biblical god! It screwed up big time and should be made to pay for it, if it was responsible for creation!

Another post of unsupported claims, Floo.  When are you going to produce any evidence to back up these posts and claims?

[Sassy]

What does Rome have to do with me? It abandoned the faith of the Apostles many ages ago and your quote merely proves it is on the brink of apostasy, an example that it is dispensationalist in all but name.

Rome never had any faith and as for the Apostles why come out with such a comment if it has nothing to do with you.
You see it is the Church of Christ not the Apostles they did not die on a cross and they were not the Son of God the Messiah.
Why throw in such comments? Your knowledge is really from their beliefs.

The Apostle taught that the Law has gone and has been replaced by a better covenant. The Church is the one true Israel of God, Abraham's descendants by faith.

No they didn't. If you had any understanding you would know that God put's people right with him by faith.
Just as he did with Abraham. Abraham believed God and he accounted this to Abraham as righteouness.
The Apostles even claimed...Paul, I am the righteousness of God, in Christ Jesus. The New Covenant is God taking away the heart of stone and forgiving sins. Then the Holy Spirit is given so people live as God calls them.

So we see the true builders are the Jews and we are Jews who believe in the Messiah grafted in and waiting for the full number of Gentiles. Then God will open the eyes of the Jews and the full number will be accounted for,.
There was NEVER  a new faith, just a New Covenant and that Covenant was given to the Jews first and then the Gentiles.
The twelve Apostles were ALL JEWS as was Christ himself.

Christ and the Apostles taught...

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Christ obeyed the law to the letter therefore fulfilling the law and then he died so as by Adam all men died, through Christ all men can choose to live.
You don't break the laws nor teach others to do the same for the Jews still have their covenant to the fulfilling of Gods plan comes to pass.

You are disobeying Christ and the LORD God if you tell people they do not have to keep the commandments.
Because the two commandments of Christ sum up all the LAWS and teachings of the Prophets.
Where as we could not obey the Law Christ has become the way for our sins to be forgiven and to walk according to the Spirit of Truth.

I am not worried because I know that Gods words are true and it is God and Christ we must obey.

King James Bible
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

So Christ commands all who love him to keep his commandments.

Which include all the law and Prophets.

We have the Lord to help us and live in love and peace by the power of Gods Spirit given to us in Christ.

[Khatru]

The New Covenant is God taking away the heart of stone

Looks like your god interfering again.  What happened to free will?  If the hearts were already hard, why didn't your god harden them further like he did with Pharaoh?  Or why didn't he just take away Pharaoh's hard heart like he does to people in the new covenant?

So we see the true builders are the Jews

That's right, particularly in the OT, which, despite your beliefs, is not a dress rehearsal for Christianity.

Those OT prophecies were made by the Jews. It's their religion, not yours.

Ask a Jew whether Christ fulfilled those prophecies and you'll quite likely be told that he didn't. 

Not to worry, you can always take comfort in the knowledge that their belief system is wrong and that they're not interpreting their own scriptures properly.

So Christ commands all who love him to keep his commandments.

Which include all the law and Prophets.

If it includes all the law then I hope you're not wearing mixed fabrics because, in your god's eyes, that puts you in the same category as a murderer.

[Sassy]

Looks like your god interfering again.

It is offered and people have to accept it. When will you learn to study the religions before making empty comments due to having no idea what you are talking about?

  What happened to free will?

So you know about Christ....

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Have you become a believer and accepted Jesus Christ?
So why ask ridiculous questions?  ALL including you know about this New Covenant but you have rejected the truth. So stop suggesting silly things which you yourself are an example of having the choice.

If the hearts were already hard, why didn't your god harden them further like he did with Pharaoh?  Or why didn't he just take away Pharaoh's hard heart like he does to people in the new covenant?

There own beliefs just as yours harden their own hearts.

31 Woe to them that go down to Egypt for help; and stay on horses, and trust in chariots, because they are many; and in horsemen, because they are very strong; but they look not unto the Holy One of Israel, neither seek the Lord!

2 Yet he also is wise, and will bring evil, and will not call back his words: but will arise against the house of the evildoers, and against the help of them that work iniquity.

3 Now the Egyptians are men, and not God; and their horses flesh, and not spirit. When the Lord shall stretch out his hand, both he that helpeth shall fall, and he that is holpen shall fall down, and they all shall fail together.

The Egyptians believed their Pharaohs were gods. They were arrogant and were so when it came to the true God. How could Pharaoh like yourself not harden their hearts?
And you, why rebel against the truth and why do it in ignorance. Even Pharaohs own men warned them it was the finger of God no power greater than Gods own.

That's right, particularly in the OT, which, despite your beliefs, is not a dress rehearsal for Christianity.

Again how does becoming a Jew believing in the Messiah become about Christianity?
Believers in Christ are part of God people they become Messianic Jews the Christian bit was just an insult. I guess you know even less that the basic.

Those OT prophecies were made by the Jews. It's their religion, not yours.

Says who? Again believers in the Messiah are accepted as being grafted in to the true faith.
The faith of the Messiah and in the one True God.

Ask a Jew whether Christ fulfilled those prophecies and you'll quite likely be told that he didn't. 

Messianic Jews believe he did fulfill the Prophecies and the others don't because they have not really studied the truth about Christ but hear the made up thing by the Roman Catholic Church etc.

Not to worry, you can always take comfort in the knowledge that their belief system is wrong and that they're not interpreting their own scriptures properly.

But you are chewing bricks and breaking your teeth. You don't know the Messianic scriptures so cannot tell anyone what is wrong and who isn't.  You believe in your own belief system and it has no foundation in the Messianic truth regarding Jews and believers. Pharaoh and you have a lot in common. Ignorance is the reason people fail and die.

If it includes all the law then I hope you're not wearing mixed fabrics because, in your god's eyes, that puts you in the same category as a murderer.

You don't understand, the Messiah brought the truth. The truth is within the person.
You are a million miles away from it, and getting further away.