IndyRef2 ?

[Aruntraveller]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37634338

I can understand the impulse to go for another roll of the dice on this issue - but please, not just yet.

I'm all referendummed out.

[floo]

Whilst it is understandable that Scotland would consider another referendum, in the light of the Brexit disaster I don't know that they could stand alone without the rest of the UK. If they did vote to leave, the UK would be in an even worse state than it is now, imo.

[Aruntraveller]

Whilst it is understandable that Scotland would consider another referendum, in the light of the Brexit disaster I don't know that they could stand alone without the rest of the UK. If they did vote to leave, the UK would be in an even worse state than it is now, imo.

On the other hand they could be the intelligent ones deserting the sinking ship that is the UK. Cue some numpty saying I'm talking down the country. Yep I'm solely responsible for the exchange rate and Unilever and the Banking system.

No, if I were in Scotland and had voted no last time - I'd be looking very hard at my options this time around.

[Nearly Sane]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37634338

I can understand the impulse to go for another roll of the dice on this issue - but please, not just yet.

I'm all referendummed out.

Note this is a consulation bill and won't be voted on yet. There are many pushing for a referendum asap in order to try and ensure Scotland has any chance of staying in the EU. There are also many that want to wait till an assumed fall out from Brexit becomes more apparent. This is an attempt to harness both horses, though one that I think will become harder to maintain.

I, too, am refetendummed out but can see the pressure to keep the faithful happy.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Note this is a consulation bill and won't be voted on yet. There are many pushing for a referendum asap in order to try and ensure Scotland has any chance of staying in the EU. There are also many that want to wait till an assumed fall out from Brexit becomes more apparent. This is an attempt to harness both horses, though one that I think will become harder to maintain.

I, too, am refetendummed out but can see the pressure to keep the faithful happy.

I think this is useful on the British stage since it is a message that folks wont idly be ruled out of a process as May, Curly, Mo and Boris would like.

Ironic isn't it that the Brexiteers who moaned about not being heard are now the folks telling others to shut up.

As they say in Great Brexit.....Gerroverit!!!!!!!!

[floo]

Am I right in thinking that Nicola Sturgeon claimed Scotland could prevent the whole of the UK leaving the EU?

[Nearly Sane]

Am I right in thinking that Nicola Sturgeon claimed Scotland could prevent the whole of the UK leaving the EU?

No, she stated that if the possibility existed they would look at it. The Scottish govt then confirmed that it does not have a veto.

[floo]

No, she stated that if the possibility existed they would look at it. The Scottish govt then confirmed that it does not have a veto.

I hadn't seen that! I would have thought it was unlikely they would have had a veto.

[Nearly Sane]

I hadn't seen that! I would have thought it was unlikely they would have had a veto.

The question was whether non ratification in the Scottish parliament would amount to a veto, based on devolution legislation, rather than a specific veto.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

There should perhaps be independence referenda in all four home countries.

[Anchorman]

The big stushie comes when the Westminster government (which is not popular - or indeed elected - in Scotland) tries to interfere with the Scotland Act which set up parliament in its albeit limited form in 1999. That Act was Westminster based, and a Westminster based referendum was needed to ensure Scots approved it - which we did, overwhelmingly. Surely any interference with the Act, which enshrines ECHR and other EU laws in its make up, would require another Westminster led devolution referendum? Holyrood - and not only SNP - are adamantly against Westminster changing legislation without the Scots parliament's consent, and, as Labour, what's left of the Lib Dems, the Greens, as well as SNP are opposed to Westminster changing legislation without Holyrood's approval, get the popcorn ready........

[Hope]

Whilst it is understandable that Scotland would consider another referendum, in the light of the Brexit disaster I don't know that they could stand alone without the rest of the UK. If they did vote to leave, the UK would be in an even worse state than it is now, imo.

Perhaps more importantly, for both Scotland and rUK, would they individually have enough clout to be able to negotiate decent trading deals with the EU, the USA, etc., etc.

After all, the EU referendum was a whole-UK event with a whole-UK impact on the UK, as it was back in June.  Arguing that Westminster has no mandate in Scotland ignores both the whole-UK nature of the referendum and the whole-UK nature of the 2015 General Election.

[Gordon]

Perhaps more importantly, for both Scotland and rUK, would they individually have enough clout to be able to negotiate decent trading deals with the EU, the USA, etc., etc.

After all, the EU referendum was a whole-UK event with a whole-UK impact on the UK, as it was back in June.  Arguing that Westminster has no mandate in Scotland ignores both the whole-UK nature of the referendum and the whole-UK nature of the 2015 General Election.

I'd have thought the EU referendum result in Scotland plus the fact that in Westminster terms the Tories have only one MP here strongly suggests that the political situation here is different. We need to await events but having watched part of the debate in Wesminster it seems to me that Brexit is a Tory-led disaster and that, as things stand, if indyref2 does happen then the result will be different next time.

Don't forget we were sold out by assurances that to be safe in the EU we needed to stay in the UK - I suspect that Brexit will become less appetising to even the zealots as time goes on, and unless someone finds a way to stop the madness we need to ditch the UK since the UK isn't working in our interests, or even the interests of people in rUK.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I'd have thought the EU referendum result in Scotland plus the fact that in Westminster terms the Tories have only one MP here strongly suggests that the political situation here is different. We need to await events but having watched part of the debate in Wesminster it seems to me that Brexit is a Tory-led disaster and that, as things stand, if indyref2 does happen then the result will be different next time.

Don't forget we were sold out by assurances that to be safe in the EU we needed to stay in the UK - I suspect that Brexit will become less appetising to even the zealots as time goes on, and unless someone finds a way to stop the madness we need to ditch the UK since the UK isn't working in our interests, or even the interests of people in rUK.

I agree MP's and Scottish MEP's are doing the UK a service by reminding us all that Brexit is not consequence free.

With the Express apparently suggesting that dissent be met with imprisonment the nature of the Brexiteer becomes ever clearer. It's Francoist.

[Anchorman]

I'd have thought the EU referendum result in Scotland plus the fact that in Westminster terms the Tories have only one MP here strongly suggests that the political situation here is different. We need to await events but having watched part of the debate in Wesminster it seems to me that Brexit is a Tory-led disaster and that, as things stand, if indyref2 does happen then the result will be different next time.

Don't forget we were sold out by assurances that to be safe in the EU we needed to stay in the UK - I suspect that Brexit will become less appetising to even the zealots as time goes on, and unless someone finds a way to stop the madness we need to ditch the UK since the UK isn't working in our interests, or even the interests of people in rUK.

Wot Gordon said!

[Anchorman]

A great wee blog from the Wee Ginger Dug, on today's announcement. And, no, he isn't a member of SNP. https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2016/10/13/the-path-were-walking/

[ad_orientem]

Go for it, Scots. Just don't be stupid and hand it all away to the EU. They'll fuck you.

[john]

I really cannot understand the Scottish position here.

They wanted to be independent, so pushed to leave the UK.

But now they want to give independence up and stay in the EU.

The obvious conclusion is that the only reason they wanted to leave to UK is because they hate the English. Which is the impression I got last time I went to Edinburgh.

And Nicola Sturgeon says Teresa May is xenophobic.!

[Nearly Sane]

I really cannot understand the Scottish position here.

They wanted to be independent, so pushed to leave the UK.

But now they want to give independence up and stay in the EU.

The obvious conclusion is that the only reason they wanted to leave to UK is because they hate the English. Which is the impression I got last time I went to Edinburgh.

And Nicola Sturgeon says Teresa May is xenophobic.!

so according to you, the UK isn't currently independent?

[Anchorman]

Hi, John. Your points aren't that obvious to me! SNP don't hate the English - there are thousands of born and brred Englishmen who are SNP members; even a few SNP branches south of the border (actually, I don't understand that either) Our Depute leader was born in England, and I'm almost certain he doesn't hate himself. Secondly, the independent in Europe thingy is no invention of Nicola - or big Eck, for that matter. It was party policy when I joined in 1983. There is no dichotomy in being fully independent within a political union. It works for France, Belgium, Luxemburg..... Were complete autonomy in all domestic, defence and foriegn affairs granted Scotland, SNP would have no purpose. These powers are not granted.

[Gordon]

I really cannot understand the Scottish position here.

They wanted to be independent, so pushed to leave the UK.

But now they want to give independence up and stay in the EU.

The obvious conclusion is that the only reason they wanted to leave to UK is because they hate the English. Which is the impression I got last time I went to Edinburgh.

And Nicola Sturgeon says Teresa May is xenophobic.!

Some of us want to leave the UK, and some of us did before Brexshit. The political climate in Scotland has changed in recent years as the EU referendum and last Westminster election results confirm: in 2014 we were told by the 'Better Together' mob that if we wanted to stay in the EU then we should stay in the UK and that if we left the UK we'd be leaving the EU as well, and I expect some Scots we persuaded on that basis - I'm sure the irony of events since then won't have escaped you.

It has nothing to do with being anti-English: but you guys seem likely to be stuck with the Tories for the forseeable future - although you never know - and if so then I think, given the different political climate here, we now need to go our own way.

[Nearly Sane]

As someone who voted Yes and Remain, can I just say that in any consultation on another feckin referendum, I will be demanding that any change needs a higher electoral test than 50% of those voting on one day!

[Gordon]

As someone who voted Yes and Remain, can I just say that in any consultation on another feckin referendum, I will be demanding that any change needs a higher electoral test than 50% of those voting on one day!

I'd agree with that given the EU one - makes me laugh, or perhaps I should cry, when I hear the recent result portraying as a significant mandate. I suspect that if they re-ran the EU one tomorrow it wouldn't be certain that the result would be the same given the apparent reality since - I say apparent since nobody really seems to know the details, and especially so those who campaigned for it.

I do think though that events since 2014 regarding the EU does change the position here given that the EU status of Scotland featured so much then.

[Hope]

Some of us want to leave the UK, and some of us did before Brexshit. The political climate in Scotland has changed in recent years as the EU referendum and last Westminster election results confirm: in 2014 we were told by the 'Better Together' mob that if we wanted to stay in the EU then we should stay in the UK and that if we left the UK we'd be leaving the EU as well, and I expect some Scots we persuaded on that basis - I'm sure the irony of events since then won't have escaped you.

Except that the latter would of course still be true, regardless of what any consequent EU referendum result might have been.

It has nothing to do with being anti-English: but you guys seem likely to be stuck with the Tories for the forseeable future - although you never know - and if so then I think, given the different political climate here, we now need to go our own way.

I'd be surprised if England were to be stuck with the Tories after 2020: though if Wales and Scotland are anything to go by, England might be in for a period of one party rule.

[Anchorman]

Hope; One party rule? When SLAB dominated Scots politics, I did not see the phrase trotted out by Westminster lovers. The SNP is technically a minority government in Scotland - so hardly one party rule. However, it does enjoy a majority where the independence question is concerned, since the Scottish Greens are even more insistant on Indyref 2 than SNP, and, with their MSPs combined with SNP, the Indyref bill will have majority support in Holyrood, should it reach the debating chamber. As Gordon stated, the political and cultural climate here is diversifying further with every passing day from Westminster, and a gulf is opening which is not entirely of Holyrood's making.