Should supporting the UK in Europe be treasonous?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Like I said we don't agree, I don'see leaving as any kind of road to disaster, we have managed quite well as a nation for coming up to a thousand years now.
ippy

Thank you for that ringing endorsement of ecclesiastical influence in society.

PS. The ''bumps in the road'' are peoples lives and livelihoods.

[Spud]

Please give some examples of things the EU is doing that don't suit us.

Taking British jobs away from British people and giving them to non-British people.

It's partly the way British people use the EU that I find wrong. For example, a woman with children can't be bothered to clean her kitchen or make her children help, so she hires a foreign maid to do it, who she pays a low wage rather than paying the full rate to a British person. She goes to the coffee shop or gym while the maid is doing her work. The children never learn how to clear up their mess.

Anyway, yes, this particular club is very important to us,

Maybe it is, but how are people going to find that out unless they get a taste of life outside the EU?

so we should stay and fix things.

Yes maybe we should, but you can't just force people to stay in a club. They have to want to be in it. In order for people to want to be in, they have to experience being both in and out.

There was plenty of debate before the referendum, which uncovered things about EU membership that suited some people and things that didn't suit others. The point I'm making is that it might be good for Britain to experience being out of the EU; if however we are not able to survive, can we get back in?

[Bubbles]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/treason-brexit-petition_uk_58047bfbe4b0ee3352126b7a?

Some people are just weird!!

I often wonder why the most unsuitable people pursue politics and power, and get in.

Look at the USA.

I don't think you can make opposition to Brexit treason, it comes under the heading of oppression not democracy. (IMO )

Love it or hate it, Brexit came about because people had different ideas of what was best for the uk.

What people think is bad for the country is subjective.

If we start labelling different POV's as treason, where does it stop?

It's a bit like the old  USSR used to be, where the only parties you could vote for were the ones that fitted into the same ideology.

I think it's a bad idea to criminalise people who have a different POV.

An example would be Scotland, I think it would be a bad thing if the country split up, but no way do I think Scots should be labelled traitors.

It's a daft idea.
🌹

[Anchorman]

Nor, Spud, can a majority force us to leave the EU.....especially since a substantial majority of my fellow countrymen very sensibly voted to remain.

[Gordon]

An example would be Scotland, I think it would be a bad thing if the country split up, but no way do I think Scots should be labelled traitors.

It's a daft idea.
🌹

It would be daft indeed, especially since I don't think many of us would really care anyway: and of course many of us don't see the UK as something we have an allegiance to since large chunks of it are seemingly intent on damaging our interests (along with the interests of rUK).   

[Spud]

Nor, Spud, can a majority force us to leave the EU.....especially since a substantial majority of my fellow countrymen very sensibly voted to remain.

Hi Anch,
It's bizarre that this situation has arisen.
However, before you have Indyref 2: could the SNP and Labour not somehow get the government to hold a second EU referendum, now that the UK has had a taste of life outside and the 'sanctions' we've had imposed on us. This idea is based on what I said above about needing to experience both being on the inside and outside of the club. Also on the fact that the referendum was not binding but advisory.
Failing this, other options are available when the side one is on loses in a referendum: either accept the result or leave the country. Simply declaring independence from the UK- well, London could do that!

[Spud]

Post script to the above: I would have suggested having EU referendum 2 in 5 years' time, after we've properly left. But that would depend on the EU allowing us to do it.

[ippy]

I think you'd get a bit of a shock to find out how grim life has been for most people for most of the last thousand years.
Well the ride didn't even have to be bumpy. And let's be honest "bumpy" means people losing their livelihoods. I hope you and the rest f the Leavers well step up to the plate and take responsibility for your actions if it all goes further wrong than it has done already.

I'm not professor of history, but I know our history here in this collective group of countries now known as the U K, isn't  in the minor league when it comes to being  successful over all in the world not just in Europe.

Whatever happens even if it were to be either remain or leave there would be winners and losers and as I have said I'm optimistic about our future outside of this federal Europe of yours, we're not declaring war on Europe we'll just hopefully going our own way.

Whetever way we go, will for certain not be the perfect answer to everything that's why I'd rather our country held the wheel of our own future, you think this will involve a drive over a cliff, that's where we part company on our points of view, I never did want to be a part of Europe, I voted against joining in that first referendum as well as this one and when I look back maybe the EEC wasn't that bad an idea if that had been all it was an EEC.

I can't do much but if neccessary I'll do anything I can to help stop remoaners watering down our break with this federated Europe of yours.

If you have a look at this weeks edition of 'Question Time' on the bbc iplayer this you'll be able to see some of the strength of felling about leaving your federated Europe; oh, of course, sorry I forgot, more than a half of our country is populated by idiots.

ippy

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I'm not professor of history, but I know our history here in this collective group of countries now known as the U K, isn't  in the minor league when it comes to being  successful over all in the world not just in Europe.

Whatever happens even if it were to be either remain or leave there would be winners and losers and as I have said I'm optimistic about our future outside of this federal Europe of yours, we're not declaring war on Europe we'll just hopefully going our own way.

Whetever way we go, will for certain not be the perfect answer to everything that's why I'd rather our country held the wheel of our own future, you think this will involve a drive over a cliff, that's where we part company on our points of view, I never did want to be a part of Europe, I voted against joining in that first referendum as well as this one and when I look back maybe the EEC wasn't that bad an idea if that had been all it was an EEC.

I can't do much but if neccessary I'll do anything I can to help stop remoaners watering down our break with this federated Europe of yours.

If you have a look at this weeks edition of 'Question Time' on the bbc iplayer this you'll be able to see some of the strength of felling about leaving your federated Europe; oh, of course, sorry I forgot, more than a half of our country is populated by idiots.

ippy

Brexiteers should consider devoting their own time and resources in helping the unemployed created by their decision.

[L.A.]

Taking British jobs away from British people and giving them to non-British people.

That isn't the way that it works Spud. Foreign workers have tended to take the jobs that UK citizens can't or won't do, and fill in the gaps where we simply don't have enough of our own trained people. One 'classic' example is the agricultural industry which relies of foreign workers to do much of the harvesting of fruit and veg. Without these 'non-British people' much of the industry would collapse - and many 'British people' employed in dependent industries and the service sector would be picking-up their P45's.

]
It's partly the way British people use the EU that I find wrong. For example, a woman with children can't be bothered to clean her kitchen or make her children help, so she hires a foreign maid to do it, who she pays a low wage rather than paying the full rate to a British person. She goes to the coffee shop or gym while the maid is doing her work. The children never learn how to clear up their mess.

That is a complete mis-representation of situation for most people.

My daughter works 4 days a week in a management position at the local office of a national company. However, with two small children, she struggles with the housework and 'tries' to employ a cleaner to lighten the load a bit. I say 'tries' because she finds it very difficult to find anyone who is competent and reliable.

There was plenty of debate before the referendum, which uncovered things about EU membership that suited some people and things that didn't suit others. The point I'm making is that it might be good for Britain to experience being out of the EU; if however we are not able to survive, can we get back in?

It's one hell of gamble to take just on the basis that the experience "might be good for Britain".

The country will be in turmoil for many decades and sure, there will be some winners but there will also be many losers. I suspect that my generation will never see the country as prosperous as it was on the 23rd of June 2016.

[Aruntraveller]

sorry I forgot, more than a half of our country is populated by idiots.

Not sure anyone is saying that.

In any case if you are talking about the numbers who voted to leave - you mean the approx. 34% of eligible voters who voted leave?

I point this out because people, including you talk about half. It wasn't 50%.

David Davies amongst others claim an overwhelming mandate for Brexit - can you explain to me and others how 34% is overwhelming in any sense?

Particularly when our government would never allow unions to claim a mandate on anything of this minority nature.

[L.A.]

sorry I forgot, more than a half of our country is populated by idiots.

I've just heard an interesting story the other day:

My friends daughter had 'swallowed' the Brexiteer propaganda and voted Leave - turns out her husbands company have announced substantial redundancies as a result of the Brexit slowdown.

Was she was an idiot or just gullible? . . . you tell me!

[Anchorman]

Hi Anch, It's bizarre that this situation has arisen. However, before you have Indyref 2: could the SNP and Labour not somehow get the government to hold a second EU referendum, now that the UK has had a taste of life outside and the 'sanctions' we've had imposed on us. This idea is based on what I said above about needing to experience both being on the inside and outside of the club. Also on the fact that the referendum was not binding but advisory. Failing this, other options are available when the side one is on loses in a referendum: either accept the result or leave the country. Simply declaring independence from the UK- well, London could do that!

Hi Anch, It's bizarre that this situation has arisen. However, before you have Indyref 2: could the SNP and Labour not somehow get the government to hold a second EU referendum, now that the UK has had a taste of life outside and the 'sanctions' we've had imposed on us. This idea is based on what I said above about needing to experience both being on the inside and outside of the club. Also on the fact that the referendum was not binding but advisory. Failing this, other options are available when the side one is on loses in a referendum: either accept the result or leave the country. Simply declaring independence from the UK- well, London could do that!

Were London a nation, then London could, indeed secede from England. That,  Spud, is London's concern, not mine. Scotland IS, however a nation - one which the Westminster government declared were equal partners in the union after 2014. They need to keep their promise and treat us as such, if they have any integrity, which I doubt., otherwise we will have no hesitation in either making that partnership equal or trying to end it. As for SNP co-operating with what's left of Labour? Seriously? After Corbyn, Dugdale et al's remarks about Scotland's choice in june this year?

[Sebastian Toe]

Taking British jobs away from British people and giving them to non-British people.

It's partly the way British people use the EU that I find wrong. For example, a woman with children can't be bothered to clean her kitchen or make her children help, so she hires a foreign maid to do it, who she pays a low wage rather than paying the full rate to a British person. She goes to the coffee shop or gym while the maid is doing her work. The children never learn how to clear up their mess.

If she employed a British maid, how would the children learn to clear up their mess then?

[Bubbles]

Not sure anyone is saying that.

In any case if you are talking about the numbers who voted to leave - you mean the approx. 34% of eligible voters who voted leave?

I point this out because people, including you talk about half. It wasn't 50%.

David Davies amongst others claim an overwhelming mandate for Brexit - can you explain to me and others how 34% is overwhelming in any sense?

Particularly when our government would never allow unions to claim a mandate on anything of this minority nature.

The ones who didn't vote, who couldn't be bothered obviously weren't that fussed.

It wasn't a minority vote.

You can just as easily add the ones who couldn't be bothered to vote, to the Brexit vote.

[Bubbles]

All that happens is that remainers who can't accept a democratic vote just come across as people who are terrified of change and can't let go.

Move on.

[L.A.]

All that happens is that remainers who can't accept a democratic vote just come across as people who are terrified of change and can't let go.

Move on.

'Moving on' might be a bit trickier than the Brexiteers would have had us believe:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37735968

The EU are probably not going to offer us the pragmatic deal that everyone is assuming.

[Aruntraveller]

The ones who didn't vote, who couldn't be bothered obviously weren't that fussed.

It wasn't a minority vote.

You can just as easily add the ones who couldn't be bothered to vote, to the Brexit vote.

So would you say it was an overwhelming mandate then?

[Anchorman]

All that happens is that remainers who can't accept a democratic vote just come across as people who are terrified of change and can't let go.

Move on.

All that means is that brexiters who cannot accepyt the democratic wishes of the people of Scotland and Northern Ireland need to think about their precious union before they make matters worse than they already are.

[Bubbles]

All that means is that brexiters who cannot accepyt the democratic wishes of the people of Scotland and Northern Ireland need to think about their precious union before they make matters worse than they already are.

I voted remain, the majority voted Brexit, Scotland voted to stick with the U.K.

Therefore they are bound by a democratic vote.

Time to move on now.

[Bubbles]

So would you say it was an overwhelming mandate then?

I'd say the matter is now closed.

Remain lost.

I'm not supporting overturning a democratic vote, even if it isn't what I voted!

[Bubbles]

'Moving on' might be a bit trickier than the Brexiteers would have had us believe:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37735968

The EU are probably not going to offer us the pragmatic deal that everyone is assuming.

Probably not, the writings been on the wall for quite a while.

Other countries in the EU have their own problems with their own populations wanting out.

They don't want us to be to successful, because it might increase problems in their own countries.

I haven't assumed we are going to get a good deal.

I think it's going to be a struggle.

Plus the fact, even if you did overturn the Brexit vote, they may no longer want us.

A lot of them acknowledge it was. ( a democratic vote)

[L.A.]

Probably not, the writings been on the wall for quite a while.

Other countries in the EU have their own problems with their own populations wanting out.

They don't want us to be to successful, because it might increase problems in their own countries.

I haven't assumed we are going to get a good deal.

I think it's going to be a struggle.

Plus the fact, even if you did overturn the Brexit vote, they may no longer want us.

A lot of them acknowledge it was. ( a democratic vote)

None of which is good news for us. If we lose the single market the economy will be in for a very bumpy ride.

[Anchorman]

I voted remain, the majority voted Brexit, Scotland voted to stick with the U.K.

Therefore they are bound by a democratic vote.

Time to move on now.

I voted remain, the majority voted Brexit, Scotland voted to stick with the U.K.

Therefore they are bound by a democratic vote.

Time to move on now.

I voted remain, the majority voted Brexit, Scotland voted to stick with the U.K.

Therefore they are bound by a democratic vote.

Time to move on now.

Ah, democratic vote.
That woyuld be the same democratic vote that kicked out all but three unionist apologist reps to the pseudodemocratic rabble of Westminster, then?
The Democratic vote which saw a majority of elected members in Scotland's parliament in favour of regaining her freedom elected in the last Holyrood elections?

[Anchorman]

Thank you for that ringing endorsement of ecclesiastical influence in society. PS. The ''bumps in the road'' are peoples lives and livelihoods.

Apart from that, ippy, what thousand years? The Act of Ubnion was in 1707. The Act of separation making the majority of Ireland free nearly 240 years later. Bad arithmetic on Vlad's part.