Should supporting the UK in Europe be treasonous?

[ippy]

Apart from that, ippy, what thousand years? The Act of Ubnion was in 1707. The Act of separation making the majority of Ireland free nearly 240 years later. Bad arithmetic on Vlad's part.

What's next Anchor, picking up on semantics too?

ippy

[Anchorman]

Nope. 'british history does not go back a thousand years. Niether does the so-called mother of parliaments. At best, the 'UK' as we know it iss less than eighty years old.

[Bubbles]

Ah, democratic vote.
That woyuld be the same democratic vote that kicked out all but three unionist apologist reps to the pseudodemocratic rabble of Westminster, then?
The Democratic vote which saw a majority of elected members in Scotland's parliament in favour of regaining her freedom elected in the last Holyrood elections?

The one where the majority of the Scottish people voted to stay part of the U.K., that one!

[Gordon]

The one where the majority of the Scottish people voted to stay part of the U.K., that one!

You mean the one where we were told that if we wanted to remain in the EU we'd best vote to stay in the UK?

Some of those who voted 'No' may well have been swayed by this and I'm sure you can see the irony given the support for the EU within Scotland in the more recent referendum - something that those claiming a mandate for Brexit prefer to ignore.

Things have changed and if you guys in rUK are happy to accept Brexit them I think we need to leave you to it - you might like to think the matter is closed but it isn't, and as the disaster that is Brexit slowly unfolds and I'd expect the support for independence here in Scotland will grow.

[ippy]

Nope. 'british history does not go back a thousand years. Niether does the so-called mother of parliaments. At best, the 'UK' as we know it iss less than eighty years old.

Maybe something like 942 and a half years? Or 748 and a quarter? So anyway, returning to the subject of the thread.

ippy

[Bubbles]

You mean the one where we were told that if we wanted to remain in the EU we'd best vote to stay in the UK?

Some of those who voted 'No' may well have been swayed by this and I'm sure you can see the irony given the support for the EU within Scotland in the more recent referendum - something that those claiming a mandate for Brexit prefer to ignore.

Things have changed and if you guys in rUK are happy to accept Brexit them I think we need to leave you to it - you might like to think the matter is closed but it isn't, and as the disaster that is Brexit slowly unfolds and I'd expect the support for independence here in Scotland will grow.

I can see the irony.  I didn't vote to leave the EU either.

Leaving the UK could be another disaster for Scotland.

Just because people want it, doesn't mean it will work.

If the UK gets a hard deal in Brexit, it won't be able to offer anything but a hard exit for Scotland.

Then you would have to try and negotiate your way into the EU and you wouldn't get the same deal  as the UK had.

You would have to adopt the euro.

I don't think Scotland keeping the pound is an option. Plus Scotland would have to take its fair share of the debt.

If Scotland leaves, it's on it's own.

[Gordon]

I can see the irony.  I didn't vote to leave the EU either.

Leaving the UK could be another disaster for Scotland.

Just like Brexit.

Just because people want it, doesn't mean it will work.

Just like Brexit.

If the UK gets a hard deal in Brexit, it won't be able to offer anything but a hard exit for Scotland.

There would be negotiation, and I don't expect that to be one sided.

Then you would have to try and negotiate your way into the EU and you wouldn't get the same deal  as the UK had.

You would have to adopt the euro.

I don't think Scotland keeping the pound is an option. Plus Scotland would have to take its fair share of the debt.

All aspects of negotiation.

If Scotland leaves, it's on it's own.

Which is the general idea.

[L.A.]

The one where the majority of the Scottish people voted to stay part of the U.K., that one!

But I can see their point - the UK that they voted to remain a part of has chosen to transform itself beyond all recognition. Had the referenda been the other way around I think there is no doubt that we would now have an independent Scotland.

[Bubbles]

Just like Brexit.

Just like Brexit.

There would be negotiation, and I don't expect that to be one sided.

All aspects of negotiation.

Which is the general idea.

If things go really badly with Brexit, their ( gov in London) ability to negotiate will be limited.

You cannot take and cripple the rest of the U.K.

You can't negotiate something, if it isn't there to offer.

If the uk suffers, Scotland can't expect to b given a golden handshake.

If it did go like the Great Depression in the states, then Scotland just wouldn't get anything like a good deal.

Why should they?

[Hope]

Things have changed and if you guys in rUK are happy to accept Brexit them I think we need to leave you to it - you might like to think the matter is closed but it isn't, and as the disaster that is Brexit slowly unfolds and I'd expect the support for independence here in Scotland will grow.

I think 'things have changed' many years ago, Gordon.  If we, as the British public, had been given the opportunity to vote on the Maastricht and Lisbon Treaties as the relevant PMs promised, I doubt whether there would have been the referendum last June.  Out of interest, how much has Scotland relied on EU monies for structural and other purposes - such as has happened in S.Wales, Cornwall and the North East of England - who seemed to be the most vocally in support of Brexit.

[Gordon]

If things go really badly with Brexit, their ( gov in London) ability to negotiate will be limited.

Which is something the government (the Tory party) inflicted on us in a effort to deal with their internal party politics with no plans in place since, presumably, even they didn't expect the answer they got .

You cannot take and cripple the rest of the U.K.

You mean like we are being crippled, primarily it seems by voters in provincial England.

If the uk suffers, Scotland can't expect to b given a golden handshake.

The UK is already suffering so we need to negotiate a Ukexit: remember we didn't vote for either the hapless Tories or Brexit.

If it did go like the Great Depression in the states, then Scotland just wouldn't get anything like a good deal.

Why should they?

I think we've seen enough to guage which way the wind is blowing so if rUK is fool enough to go down this route we need to get out of the UK before Brexit - remember 68% of us here in Scotland didn't vote for Brexit so surely you don't expect us to roll over for a government we didn't vote for.

[Hope]

Which is something the government (the Tory party) inflicted on us in a effort to deal with their internal party politics with no plans in place since, presumably, even they didn't expect the answer they got .

I do believe that they didn't think that the result would turn out the way it did.  They believed that the British people would know that staying in the EU would be best for them.

You mean like we are being crippled, primarily it seems by voters in provincial England.

Not to mention a large proportion of the Welsh!!

The UK is already suffering so we need to negotiate a Ukexit: remember we didn't vote for either the hapless Tories or Brexit.

I think we've seen enough to guage which way the wind is blowing so if rUK is fool enough to go down this route we need to get out of the UK before Brexit - remember 68% of us here in Scotland vote for Brexit so surely you don't expect us to roll over for a government we didn't vote for.

Except that, by voting in the UK's General Election in May 2015, you and other Scottish people did vote for the government.  Mind you, if the Scots were so keen on independence, why vote with the rest of the UK in either a General Election or Brexit Referendum?  There appears to be a double standard within Scottish politics.

[Nearly Sane]

I do believe that they didn't think that the result would turn out the way it did.  They believed that the British people would know that staying in the EU would be best for them.
Not to mention a large proportion of the Welsh!!
Except that, by voting in the UK's General Election in May 2015, you and other Scottish people did vote for the government.  Mind you, if the Scots were so keen on independence, why vote with the rest of the UK in either a General Election or Brexit Referendum?  There appears to be a double standard within Scottish politics.

they didn't vote supportive of the UK Govt or Brexit.

[Gordon]

I do believe that they didn't think that the result would turn out the way it did.  They believed that the British people would know that staying in the EU would be best for them.
Not to mention a large proportion of the Welsh!!
Except that, by voting in the UK's General Election in May 2015, you and other Scottish people did vote for the government.  Mind you, if the Scots were so keen on independence, why vote with the rest of the UK in either a General Election or Brexit Referendum?  There appears to be a double standard within Scottish politics.

Don't be silly: we are currently, since 1707, in a political union so of course we vote on UK elections. If you think that is double standards then you'd better go and study the political history of the UK.

The other point is, of course, that the outcome of both the last GE and the EU referendum show that the Scottish electorate elected only one government MP and rejected Brexit by 68/32% - so that the UK position reflects the Scottish political climate doesn't stack up.

[Nearly Sane]

I voted remain, the majority voted Brexit, Scotland voted to stick with the U.K.

Therefore they are bound by a democratic vote.

Time to move on now.

legally they aren't, since it is advisory. Are you bound to accept a General Election vote and have no opposition?

[jeremyp]

Taking British jobs away from British people and giving them to non-British people.

When has the EU ever done that?

By the way, it suits me just fine that my plumber is a likeable chap who is competent but doesn't rip me off. The fact that he comes from Poland doesn't bother me or any of his burgeoning list of British customers. It seems that it suits many of us fine for foreigners to do the jobs we want doing. The only people taking jobs away from British people is us.

You also have to remember that in the 80's with Britain in the doldrums, the EU made it possible for British people to find good jobs in other parts of the EU.

It's partly the way British people use the EU that I find wrong. For example, a woman with children can't be bothered to clean her kitchen or make her children help, so she hires a foreign maid to do it, who she pays a low wage rather than paying the full rate to a British person. She goes to the coffee shop or gym while the maid is doing her work. The children never learn how to clear up their mess.

What do you mean by a low wage and the full rate? Are you aware that the minimum wage applies to everybody?

Frankly, I'm astonished that you don't like the idea of rich people redistributing some of their money to poorer people. And I don't see why poor people from elsewhere in the EU are less deserving of jobs than British people. 

Yes maybe we should, but you can't just force people to stay in a club. They have to want to be in it. In order for people to want to be in, they have to experience being both in and out.

That would be great if we could just get back in at the drop of a hat.

The point I'm making is that it might be good for Britain to experience being out of the EU; if however we are not able to survive, can we get back in?

It'll probably turn out not to be good and the signs certainly aren't promising. I expect we probably could get back in but not on the same terms we have now. For example, our rebate will be gone and we'll have to commit to joining the Euro one day (the Euro definitely is a bad idea).

[jeremyp]

The ones who didn't vote, who couldn't be bothered obviously weren't that fussed.

It wasn't a minority vote.

You can just as easily add the ones who couldn't be bothered to vote, to the Brexit vote.

Only 34% of the electorate felt strongly enough about leaving to get off their arses and vote leave. The "don't cares" should be counted towards the status quo i.e. stay in.

[Bubbles]

Only 34% of the electorate felt strongly enough about leaving to get off their arses and vote leave. The "don't cares" should be counted towards the status quo i.e. stay in.

I don't think you can do that, they are neutral, really.

More people voted on the Brexit issue, than turnout for a general election.

[Hope]

When has the EU ever done that?

Never.  If anything, it has been British people refusing certain jobs and therefore forcing farmers and other agricultural groups to seek overseas workers to do the seasnal stuff.  The nearest we get to 'skilled' workers putting Brits out of a job has been in the areas where shortages - such as nursing - already exist.

By the way, it suits me just fine that my plumber is a likeable chap who is competent but doesn't rip me off. The fact that he comes from Poland doesn't bother me or any of his burgeoning list of British customers. It seems that it suits many of us fine for foreigners to do the jobs we want doing. The only people taking jobs away from British people is us.

But why have you got a Polish plumber, jeremy?  Is it because there are no British ones local to you?

You also have to remember that in the 80's with Britain in the doldrums, the EU made it possible for British people to find good jobs in other parts of the EU.
What do you mean by a low wage and the full rate? Are you aware that the minimum wage applies to everybody?

And, realistically, Spud - how many of those low-paid maids come from Europe?  Many come from Asia and have nothing to do with the EU.

[Hope]

they didn't vote supportive of the UK Govt or Brexit.

But they did, in the same way that every one who took part in the votes voted in support of the system that gives the result.  I'm afraid that you can't say that you want to tae part in such votes and then turn around and say that you want your metaphorical ball back simply because you don't like the result.  Like you, I believe that the rules around the referendum were poorly thought out and that at least a 60/40 split, perhaps even a 66/34 split, should have been required to change anything (I mentioned this in posts both before and after the event), but sadly, there seems to be this assumption across the board that democracy can only exist with a 50%+1 formula.

[Nearly Sane]

But they did, in the same way that every one who took part in the votes voted in support of the system that gives the result.  I'm afraid that you can't say that you want to tae part in such votes and then turn around and say that you want your metaphorical ball back simply because you don't like the result.  Like you, I believe that the rules around the referendum were poorly thought out and that at least a 60/40 split, perhaps even a 66/34 split, should have been required to change anything (I mentioned this in posts both before and after the event), but sadly, there seems to be this assumption across the board that democracy can only exist with a 50%+1 formula.

Except the manifesto commitment from the SNP for a second referendum if there was a significant change in circumstances was also by your approach voted for by the Scottish electorate in the Holyrood elections.

Also it's a logical nonsense to say that because I voted in a an election that I support whatever govt is elected.

[Bubbles]

Except the manifesto commitment from the SNP for a second referendum if there was a significant change in circumstances was also by your approach voted for by the Scottish electorate in the Holyrood elections.

Also it's a logical nonsense to say that because I voted in a an election that I support whatever govt is elected.

If you support democracy then you support whatever government is elected.

[Nearly Sane]

If you support democracy then you support whatever government is elected.

No. I don't. That would mean you couldn't have an opposition. You are the one denying the Democratic right to oppose. One that is part of the constitution.

[Gordon]

If you support democracy then you support whatever government is elected.

No you don't: I don't support the Tories, along with many others who didn't vote for them, and I would hope that the democratic opportunity to remove then comes along at the earliest opportunity - unless of course we aren't in the UK by then.

[Bubbles]

No. I don't. That would mean you couldn't have an opposition. You are the one denying the Democratic right to oppose. One that is part of the constitution.

True.

But overruling to trying to overrule a democratic vote, isn't opposition.

Scotland just like London didn't get a majority vote in the rest of the country ,  for remaining in the EU.

There were more Brexiters.