Should supporting the UK in Europe be treasonous?

[Nearly Sane]

True.

But overruling to trying to overrule a democratic vote, isn't opposition.

Scotland just like London didn't get a majority vote for remaining in the EU.

Yes, it is otherwise I couldn't oppose a democratically elected govt. Further as already pointed out, there is a democratic elected govt in Holyrood, elected with a commitment to a second independence referendum if there was a significant change in circumstances. There has been such a change.

[Bubbles]

Depending on who you believe ( or maybe which group each poll collected opinions from)
It isn't certain People in Scotland even want it.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/30/no-real-shift-towards-scottish-independence-since-brexit-vote-poll

It depends whose poll you look at.

[Bubbles]

I don't think there should be a second Scottish referendum.

If any gov did that, at a detriment to the Uk without consulting the rest of the U.K., that could be seen as treasonous, IMO.

Because they would be acting in a way that was not in the best interests of the U.K. As a whole.

The difference between the OP and the government being considered treasonous is I don't think individuals voting have the same responsibility as an elected government who are supposed to be acting in the best interests of the U.K.

Scotland becoming independent,  especially now we are headed for Brexit, would not be in the interests of the U.K.

IMO any government in London who did that, would be treasonous.

What happens will happen, but I would hold those who brought it about ( without consulting the rest of the U.K.) as treasonous.

As you can probably guess I am totally opposed to the idea.

[Nearly Sane]

Depending on who you believe ( or maybe which group each poll collected opinions from)
It isn't certain People in Scotland even want it.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/30/no-real-shift-towards-scottish-independence-since-brexit-vote-poll

It depends whose poll you look at.

But they, given the democratic vote in the Holyrood elections, should just accept it by your logic.

[Nearly Sane]

I don't think there should be a second Scottish referendum.

which would mean you are opposing the democratic vote in the Holyrood elections. I thought you didn't think people should do such things?

[jeremyp]

I don't think you can do that, they are neutral, really.

You are making the mistake of assuming this was a symmetrical decision, it wasn't. It was a choice between carrying on as before or fundamental change. The bar should really have been much higher than 34% of eligible voters.

More people voted on the Brexit issue, than turnout for a general election.

So what?

[Bubbles]

which would mean you are opposing the democratic vote in the Holyrood elections. I thought you didn't think people should do such things?

We have already had one referendum, that's enough!

If you get another close, we want to stay as part of the U.K. Are you going to demand another one? Then another one as Brexit unfolds, then another one, and so on?

Scotland like Northern Ireland, Wales and England are part of the U.K. And it was about majorities.

The majority of Londoners voted to stay in the EU too, but have to put up with the majority vote to.

It's just tough!

That's how majority votes work.

[jeremyp]

We have already had one referendum, that's enough!

The World changes, Rose. People change. It's not democracy to resort to the tyranny of the past.

[Gordon]

I don't think there should be a second Scottish referendum.

Quite a few of us Scots think otherwise and supported the SNP on the basis of the option of Indyref2 being an aspect of their manifesto should circumstances change - and change they have.

You'll forgive us for not being  particularly bothered what the electorate on rUK think since it was they that inflicted the Tories on Scotland, which led directly to their political incompetence in not planning for the result of the referendum that they alone inflicted on the UK in order to deal with their rogue element: it backfired, and the rogue element is now driving the bus towards the cliff.

[Nearly Sane]

We have already had one referendum, that's enough!

and post that vote, the manifesto containing the commitment to hold another one was voted for. Why are you saying one Democratic vite must be supported but not another one?

[Bubbles]

The World changes, Rose. People change. It's not democracy to resort to the tyranny of the past.

We can't keep having referendums, it's flippin referendums that got us in this mess in the first place.

Sometimes it doesn't pay to allow the public a say in everything.

Sometimes you need a bit of tyranny to keep things working.

The general public should never have had a vote on something as important as the EU when they were so ignorant about it.

It really was a stupid thing to do, IMO.

So I'm in favour of a bit of tyranny ATM.

 

[Bubbles]

and post that vote, the manifesto containing the commitment to hold another one was voted for. Why are you saying one Democratic vite must be supported but not another one?

Because ATM I don't think it's in anyone's interest.

It's a dream, the reality would not live up to the dream of independance.

I don't think politicians in Scotland have really given Independance any more thought than London politicians have given the Thought of leaving the EU. In fact they have more in common than differences.

Independant Scotland is just a pipe dream, just like leaving the EU was a pipe dream.

Some people bought into the idea that it would solve all their problems, nothing was properly understood or planned.

Scottish Independance is just another one, they hadn't even sorted the currency they would use, just assumed they could use the pound and have the benefits of the U.K.

Neither of those things have been really planned, it's just people ( politicians) attempting to get power and control.

Scotland leaving the UK would cripple the rest of the U.K. IMO.

There is a part of me, that sees some scots as  very " anti English" and don't even care about anyone else ( in fact want to hurt us) almost makes me want to say "well shove off then"

What will be, will be, I guess.

All I can do is look after my own family day to day.

[Nearly Sane]

We can't keep having referendums, it's flippin referendums that got us in this mess in the first place.

Sometimes it doesn't pay to allow the public a say in everything.

Sometimes you need a bit of tyranny to keep things working.

The general public should never have had a vote on something as important as the EU when they were so ignorant about it.

It really was a stupid thing to do, IMO.

So I'm in favour of a bit of tyranny ATM.

 

so all the stuff about respecting democracy from you was nonsense?

[Nearly Sane]

Because ATM I don't think it's in anyone's interest.

So actually all this stuff about people should be supporting democracy that you posted earlier, really meant they should do what you think?

[Gordon]

We can't keep having referendums, it's flippin referendums that got us in this mess in the first place.

Sometimes it doesn't pay to allow the public a say in everything.

Sometimes you need a bit of tyranny to keep things working.

The general public should never have had a vote on something as important as the EU when they were so ignorant about it.

It really was a stupid thing to do, IMO.

So I'm in favour of a bit of tyranny ATM.

 

I'd say it is more the case that the public should be asked to vote on things for sound political reasons - and that using the EU referendum to sort out the internal divisions of the Tory party wasn't a sound reason where the political consequences were unplanned for.

I think too that you don't fully appreciate the Scottish perspective on these political matters.

[Hope]

Also it's a logical nonsense to say that because I voted in a an election that I support whatever govt is elected.

Except I didn't say that you support the government; I said that you support the process that put it there - aka democracy. You can't ick and choose which aspects or elements of democracy you want to eject and what to keep.

[Nearly Sane]

Except I didn't say that you support the government; I said that you support the process that put it there - aka democracy. You can't ick and choose which aspects or elements of democracy you want to eject and what to keep.

Actually you did because in direct reply to a statement from me saying they did not vote for the Govt, said they did because of the support for the system. Opposing the Govt is not picking and choosing,  nor us continuing to campaign against a referendum result.

[jeremyp]

We can't keep having referendums, it's flippin referendums that got us in this mess in the first place.

I totally agree but some people keep bleating about the democratic inviolability of a referendum. If the only way to overturn a referendum that came to the wrong decision - or whose decision has been rendered invalid by circumstances - is to have another referendum, then one needs to be had.

Sometimes it doesn't pay to allow the public a say in everything.

Unfortunately, in the case of Brexit we already gave them a say. Wringing our hands and saying the referendum was a stupid mistake doesn't alter the fact that it happened.

Sometimes you need a bit of tyranny to keep things working.

You misunderstood what I meant. The tyranny to which I referred is the attitude "we have made our decision, we can't change it under any circumstances".

As for Scottish Independence, I still don't think they should have had the referendum. Many people would vote on the romantic notion of the little kingdom of Scotland and against their best economic interests. However, you can hardly blame them for crying foul now since they have been royally fucked up the arse by the voters of England and Wales who have voted against everybody's best interests (well maybe not people who live in Britain but are paid in Euros e.g. all the UKIP MEPs).

[Nearly Sane]

Because ATM I don't think it's in anyone's interest.

It's a dream, the reality would not live up to the dream of independance.

I don't think politicians in Scotland have really given Independance any more thought than London politicians have given the Thought of leaving the EU. In fact they have more in common than differences.

Independant Scotland is just a pipe dream, just like leaving the EU was a pipe dream.

Some people bought into the idea that it would solve all their problems, nothing was properly understood or planned.

Scottish Independance is just another one, they hadn't even sorted the currency they would use, just assumed they could use the pound and have the benefits of the U.K.

Neither of those things have been really planned, it's just people ( politicians) attempting to get power and control.

Scotland leaving the UK would cripple the rest of the U.K. IMO.

There is a part of me, that sees some scots as  very " anti English" and don't even care about anyone else ( in fact want to hurt us) almost makes me want to say "well shove off then"

What will be, will be, I guess.

All I can do is look after my own family day to day.

So again, all the stuff you wrote about democracy you are nie saying was nonsense.

[Bubbles]

so all the stuff about respecting democracy from you was nonsense?

No, but I do think you can't have a total democracy were everything is delegated to the voters.

Governments have to rule, make important decisions.

I respect democracy where a vote has taken place, even if I lost.

Scotland had theirs and I respect theirs.

[Hope]

I'd say it is more the case that the public should be asked to vote on things for sound political reasons - and that using the EU referendum to sort out the internal divisions of the Tory party wasn't a sound reason where the political consequences were unplanned for.

So it's alright for the SNP to call a referendum for its own political purposes - the consequences of which had clearly not been thought through; but not acceptable for the UK government to call one that reflected the views of people across the main parties, both for and agin.

I think too that you don't fully appreciate the Scottish perspective on these political matters.

I'm not sure that you fully understand the UK perspective on these matters.  You seem to think that Scottish interests are more important than those of other parts of the UK when, in my view, one without the other parts is largely defunct.

[Bubbles]

So again, all the stuff you wrote about democracy you are nie saying was nonsense.

No, not at all.

But the losers have to put up with their lot!

[Bubbles]

I'd say it is more the case that the public should be asked to vote on things for sound political reasons - and that using the EU referendum to sort out the internal divisions of the Tory party wasn't a sound reason where the political consequences were unplanned for.

I think too that you don't fully appreciate the Scottish perspective on these political matters.

I do, but I think it's a bit selfish.

They expect to use the pound and benefits that comes with it but be let off any debts that the uk has.

That's selfish!

[Bubbles]

So actually all this stuff about people should be supporting democracy that you posted earlier, really meant they should do what you think?

No, they should live by what the majority voted.

[Bubbles]

So it's alright for the SNP to call a referendum for its own political purposes - the consequences of which had clearly not been thought through; but not acceptable for the UK government to call one that reflected the views of people across the main parties, both for and agin.
I'm not sure that you fully understand the UK perspective on these matters.  You seem to think that Scottish interests are more important than those of other parts of the UK when, in my view, one without the other parts is largely defunct.

Yes you put that very well 🌹