Should supporting the UK in Europe be treasonous?

[Nearly Sane]

No, they should live by what the majority voted.

But that then means again that you want to stop any opposition, and also as already has been pointed out it was not a majority of the electorate. Further it was advisory not binding and a majority had voted for in far greater numbers parties that has stay in Europe as part of their manifesto.

[Nearly Sane]

I do, but I think it's a bit selfish.

They expect to use the pound and benefits that comes with it but be let off any debts that the uk has.

That's selfish!

actually that is incorrect.

[Bubbles]

I totally agree but some people keep bleating about the democratic inviolability of a referendum. If the only way to overturn a referendum that came to the wrong decision - or whose decision has been rendered invalid by circumstances - is to have another referendum, then one needs to be had.

Unfortunately, in the case of Brexit we already gave them a say. Wringing our hands and saying the referendum was a stupid mistake doesn't alter the fact that it happened.

You misunderstood what I meant. The tyranny to which I referred is the attitude "we have made our decision, we can't change it under any circumstances".

As for Scottish Independence, I still don't think they should have had the referendum. Many people would vote on the romantic notion of the little kingdom of Scotland and against their best economic interests. However, you can hardly blame them for crying foul now since they have been royally fucked up the arse by the voters of England and Wales who have voted against everybody's best interests (well maybe not people who live in Britain but are paid in Euros e.g. all the UKIP MEPs).

I agree with much of what you say, there should be something about holding referendums when there are no well thought out plans in place, and everyone should  know what they are voting for.

The romantic little kingdom of Scotland is similar to the one about how leaving the EU and jobs for the Brits and solving all the issues with red tape etc   

It's voting for an idealised position that was used by politicians, who supply the dream but not the facts or a sensible plan.

[Bubbles]

actually that is incorrect.

Please explain

[Bubbles]

But that then means again that you want to stop any opposition, and also as already has been pointed out it was not a majority of the electorate. Further it was advisory not binding and a majority had voted for in far greater numbers parties that has stay in Europe as part of their manifesto.

If people vote to see what the majority want, the minority need to accept that they lost.

Otherwise you don't have opposition so much as chaos.

You have to move forward.

Otherwise there is no point in having the referendum.

Had Scotland voted to be independant you couldn't have the losers constantly undermining the democratic process.


You still have to move forwards.

[Nearly Sane]

Please explain

The position was that share of debt would be taken. And use the pound. The threat was should they not be allowed to use the pound, the question of the share of the debt arose

[Nearly Sane]

If people vote to see what the majority want, the minority need to accept that they lost.

Otherwise you don't have opposition so much as chaos.

You have to move forward.

Otherwise there is no point in having the referendum.

Had Scotland voted to be independant you couldn't have the losers constantly undermining the democratic process.


You still have to move forwards.

Expressing opposition is not undermining the democratic process, trying to stop people expressing opposition is.

[Bubbles]

The position was that share of debt would be taken. And use the pound. The threat was should they not be allowed to use the pound, the question of the share of the debt arose

No, Scotland should have its own currency and should take its share of the dept with it.

I think now if a country wants to join the EU it has to adopt the Euro.

[Nearly Sane]

No, Scotland should have its own currency and should take its share of the dept with it.

I think now if a country wants to join the EU it has to adopt the Euro.

so you accept that what you said was incorrect?

[Bubbles]

Expressing opposition is not undermining the democratic process, trying to stop people expressing opposition is.

There comes a point when it's no longer opposition but is preventing moving forward with the democratic majority vote.

At an extreme, there is a coup!

[Bubbles]

so you accept that what you said was incorrect?

What this?

"Quote from: Rose on Today at 11:53:52 AM
I do, but I think it's a bit selfish.

They expect to use the pound and benefits that comes with it but be let off any debts that the uk has.

That's selfish"

?

No because that's part of what the SNP wanted, or so I read and saw on tv.

[Nearly Sane]

There comes a point when it's no longer opposition but is preventing moving forward with the democratic majority vote.

At an extreme, there is a coup!

Now, you are trying to stop people expressing their opinion, and trying to argue that doing so is in some way linked with the violent over throw of the state.

I suggest you don't really get democracy.

[Nearly Sane]

What this?

"Quote from: Rose on Today at 11:53:52 AM
I do, but I think it's a bit selfish.

They expect to use the pound and benefits that comes with it but be let off any debts that the uk has.

That's selfish"

?

No because that's part of what the SNP wanted, or so I read and saw on tv.

no it wasn't, this has already been covered.

[Bubbles]

no it wasn't, this has already been covered.

There is this too.

Scotland is now almost £15 billion in the red and its deficit is almost twice as large as the UK as a whole, according to newly-published official figures, which also dealt a severe blow to one of the key arguments advanced by the SNP in favour of independence.

The statistics showed that for the first time in 35 years, Scotland generated less tax per head than the rest of the UK. Although the difference is only slight, the reversal is significant because the former SNP leader Alex Salmond repeatedly used Scotland’s historically higher tax receipts to support the case for independence during 2014’s referendum campaign.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/scotland-almost-15-billion-in-debt-and-its-deficit-is-almost-twice-as-large-as-the-uk-as-a-whole-say-a6921381.html

Take that as well.

No reason why the rest of the U.K. should be left with it .

[Nearly Sane]

There is this too.

Take that as well.

No reason why the rest of the U.K. should be left with it .

You do realise that is a different issue and nothing to do with your original incorrect statement?

[Bubbles]

The SNP sound like the Brexit campaign with Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage, same misleading tactics

Kezia Dugdale, the leader of Scottish Labour, added: “These figures from the SNP Government show once and for all the devastating impact leaving the UK would have had on Scotland’s finances…People were misled by the SNP in the run-up to the referendum and that is unforgivable.”

[Bubbles]

You do realise that is a different issue and nothing to do with your original incorrect statement?

It would be easier if you told me which statement you are referring to, I've made a lot of different ones

[Bubbles]

The leave the  EU ?? referendum and the independance ?? referendum seem to have a lot in common.

[Gordon]

The SNP sound like the Brexit campaign with Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage, same misleading tactics

No they don't, and I suspect they way the SNP are portrayed by certain sections of the media outside Scotland might be pinch of salt stuff if you think they compare with these two clowns.

[Gordon]

So it's alright for the SNP to call a referendum for its own political purposes

Yes - that was part of the manifesto we voted on.

the consequences of which had clearly not been thought through; but not acceptable for the UK government to call one that reflected the views of people across the main parties, both for and agin.

The SNP are the main party here.
 

I'm not sure that you fully understand the UK perspective on these matters.  You seem to think that Scottish interests are more important than those of other parts of the UK when, in my view, one without the other parts is largely defunct.

They are more important to the people of Scotland than are  the politics surrounding the internal factions within the Tory party that are the cause of the current calamity. Perhaps the extent of allegiance to the UK isn't quite as strong here as you think it is given the UK is not acting in the interests of the 68% here who voted against Brexshit.

[Anchorman]

Yes - that was part of the manifesto we voted on.

The SNP are the main party here.
 
They are more important to the people of Scotland than are  the politics surrounding the internal factions within the Tory party that are the cause of the current calamity. Perhaps the extent of allegiance to the UK isn't quite as strong here as you think it is given the UK is not acting in the interests of the 68% here who voted against Brexshit.

Wot Gordon said.
You seem to be under the misapprehension that the united kingdom iis a country or a nation, Hope - it is niether, but the union of nations into a political union of convenience (though whose convenience is a matter of dispute,)
Scotland expressed a democratic will to remain in the Eu.
The democratically elected government of Scotland will seek to put that wish into action.
(The government of the union which Scotland manifestly did NOT elect is not only unpopular here, burt seen as an increasingly irrelevent wast of taxpayers money)

[Bubbles]

Perhaps Scotland could be considered in the same way Denmark is?

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-scottish-referendum-scotland-eu-remain-nicola-sturgeon-snp-a7100736.html

[Bubbles]

These are the things needed  to join the EU

http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/policy/conditions-membership/index_en.htm

http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/policy/steps-towards-joining/index_en.htm

Part of that is having a single monetary unit - the euro.

Plus you also have to be able to show

a functioning market economy and the capacity to cope with competition and market forces in the EU;

Scotland has never been fully independant so hasn't really got the track record to support its argument that it is able to cope as an independant country.

So it might have to wait years till it does, and it's  Independance is shown to work and that it qualifies.

If the rest of the U.K. leaves the EU, we would have to meet these conditions plus the Euro if we wanted to rejoin at a later date.

What we have ATM might well not be on offer next time round.

What we have now, evolved with the EU.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Rose,

Scotland has never been fully independant so hasn't really got the track record to support its argument that it is able to cope as an independant country.

This for me has never been part of the argument, anyone can see that Scotland is rich enough to stand alone, Whisky, Agriculture, oil, fishing, untapped ( so far ) resources for forestry, and last but definitely not least tourism, if Scotland did achieve Independence it would be inundated with investors wishing to tap into a very rich in resources little country.

Gonnagle.

[L.A.]

Dear Rose,

This for me has never been part of the argument, anyone can see that Scotland is rich enough to stand alone, Whisky, Agriculture, oil, fishing, untapped ( so far ) resources for forestry, and last but definitely not least tourism, if Scotland did achieve Independence it would be inundated with investors wishing to tap into a very rich in resources little country.

Gonnagle.

I kind of agree Gonnagle, but first it would have to discover capitalism