Should supporting the UK in Europe be treasonous?

[Bubbles]

Dear Rose,

This for me has never been part of the argument, anyone can see that Scotland is rich enough to stand alone, Whisky, Agriculture, oil, fishing, untapped ( so far ) resources for forestry, and last but definitely not least tourism, if Scotland did achieve Independence it would be inundated with investors wishing to tap into a very rich in resources little country.

Gonnagle.

But you have to be able to support the claim with a past track record of an independant Scotland. ( to join the EU)

But you can't because Scottish independance is in uncharted territory.

That doesn't mean that 5 years later you won't have that, but initially you won't.

So it might take a long time before an independant Scotland had enough paperwork to show.

It's different for another independant country joining because they would already have that, Scotland won't.

It does depend on how far back you need to go, to show you have a functioning market economy as an independant nation.

[Bubbles]

Dear Rose,

This for me has never been part of the argument, anyone can see that Scotland is rich enough to stand alone, Whisky, Agriculture, oil, fishing, untapped ( so far ) resources for forestry, and last but definitely not least tourism, if Scotland did achieve Independence it would be inundated with investors wishing to tap into a very rich in resources little country.

Gonnagle.

You forgot haggis and shortbread, both of which I like 

[Gonnagle]

Dear Rose,

I kind of agree Gonnagle, but first it would have to discover capitalism 

Ah well!! That is where our Nicola and Salmond step in, can a Leopard truly change it's shorts, it was not that long ago that the SNP were thought of as the tartan Tories.

Shortbread, oh yes, Haggis, yeuch!!

Gonnagle.

[Bubbles]

Dear Rose,

Ah well!! That is where our Nicola and Salmond step in, can a Leopard truly change it's shorts, it was not that long ago that the SNP were thought of as the tartan Tories.

Shortbread, oh yes, Haggis, yeuch!!

Gonnagle.

Lol

We like haggis in our house and have it quite often.

We went to a restaurant many years ago on the shores of Loch Ness, called I think " the Bothy" and had chicken breast sliced and filled with haggis served with a whisky  sauce.

Absolutely delicious.

If you are ever down that way, I'd recommend it 😉🌹

[L.A.]

Lol

We like haggis in our house and have it quite often.

We went to a restaurant many years ago on the shores of Loch Ness, called I think " the Bothy" and had chicken breast sliced and filled with haggis served with a whisky  sauce.

Absolutely delicious.

If you are ever down that way, I'd recommend it 😉🌹

I stayed a night at the YHA on the shores of Loch Ness a couple of years ago. Amazing location but the plesiosaurs were a bit intrusive.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Rose,

Oh I forgot, and old Lapsed has just reminded me, we have Nessie, that wonderful Myth/Legend alone is worth a few million to Scotland's coffiers.

Gonnagle.

[jeremyp]

Dear Rose,

This for me has never been part of the argument, anyone can see that Scotland is rich enough to stand alone, Whisky, Agriculture, oil, fishing, untapped ( so far ) resources for forestry, and last but definitely not least tourism, if Scotland did achieve Independence it would be inundated with investors wishing to tap into a very rich in resources little country.

Gonnagle.

Is whisky a significant part of Scotland's economy?

As for the other parts, oil is temporary and should really be ignored because it's going to run out in the next fifty years. There's no way Scottish agriculture is going to be anything but a millstone. No agriculture in Western Europe would be viable without the CAP (makes me wonder about all the farmers' fields in England I used to drive past with Vote Leave signs in them). Fishing is a finite resource and exploiting it to the max means there will soon be no fish. Forestry and tourism, I'll give you.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jeremyp,

Ever been through duty free the revenue from tax on whisky is worth billions, fishing, well us Jocks are leaders in sustainable fishing, try a Scottish prawn or mussel, the Europeans do, by the millions, agriculture, well we have enough spare land to harness and exploit agriculture, oil, aye they keep telling us it is running out, but fifty years is a long time and if we put the revenue to good use like Norway we would be laughing.

But then, I am forgetting our greatest asset, the people, we did invent the modern world

Gonnagle.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jeremyp,

And the hits keep coming What about that other great asset we have, although I would see it as quite sinful to charge our nearest neighbours for a glass of water, not forgetting the hydro power we could harness and sell to our English cousins, tell you what old son I would make a great SNP supporter, shame that is full of Grannies heilin hame and shortbread tin supporters.

Gonnagle.

[Hope]

Ever been through duty free the revenue from tax on whisky is worth billions, fishing, well us Jocks are leaders in sustainable fishing, ...

Unfortunately Gonners, research suggests that the Scottish form of sustainable fishing is lower in many of the important minerals, etc. that making the eating of fish so important for our health. 

https://authoritynutrition.com/wild-vs-farmed-salmon/
http://www.shape.com/healthy-eating/diet-tips/ask-diet-doctor-farm-raised-vs-wild-salmon

As you will see, whilst both sides have their arguements, it does seem that certain important elements are reduced in the 'farmed' types.

[Bubbles]

Unfortunately Gonners, research suggests that the Scottish form of sustainable fishing is lower in many of the important minerals, etc. that making the eating of fish so important for our health. 

https://authoritynutrition.com/wild-vs-farmed-salmon/
http://www.shape.com/healthy-eating/diet-tips/ask-diet-doctor-farm-raised-vs-wild-salmon

As you will see, whilst both sides have their arguements, it does seem that certain important elements are reduced in the 'farmed' types.

Scottish smoked salmon is popular, a lot of fish are farm raised in the rest of the U.K with no issues.

Rainbow trout are exclusively farm reared. ( which is what you would buy in the shops)

So if you are catching rainbow trout anywhere in the UK they are ALL farm reared.

Our naturalised wild brown trout couldn't cope with the shear numbers of fishermen. ( and women)

So Scotland wouldn't have to worry about that, because most freshwater fish sold is farm reared.

I don't think anyone is going to stop buying Scottish salmon because it happens to be farm reared.

Scotland also makes a profit from allowing fishermen to catch the salmon, plus hunting.

It can cost Ł1000 for the day in some places.

We went on a cruise and ended up sat with a couple and the husband was a Scot and he was a game keeper.

Hunting and fishing can be very expensive.

People come from all over the place to participate.

It isn't that Scotland can't, it's whether there are enough things and having the paperwork to show independance works ( for the eu)

Scotland has always traded on quality over quantity. Augus beef etc.

I just feel I'd be losing part of my own country in splitting up the uk partly because we are an island and Wales and Scotland are part of the same land mass.

I don't feel that way about NI because they are a separate island.

But Scotland and Wales are part of all of us.

It would be a terrible shame to lose them.

Shetland isles wanted independance from Scotland, but they won't allow them a referendum.

They would be taken out of the U.K. Against their will.

Apparently someone was telling me some of the islands could be as much a part of Norway as an alternative to the UK.

If Scotland get independance will these other islands be given a choice?

[Anchorman]

However, Rose, most Scots - and not nationalists at that - do not feel british in any way. Many of my fellow countrymen voted NO in 2014 becuse they believed they were happy being 'subsidised' by Westminster (though that was NOT the case) whilst being able to cock a snook at britain at the same time. That, in my view, is dishonest. Scotland has never lost her identity - partly because the Union was not entirely a takeover; law, religion, and to some extent education, were always separate from Westminster - and since 1947, the NHS as well. The attitudes were hardened by history, and the ambiguity of the huntin' shootin' and fishin set which, while bringing very limited employment, emptied the Highlands of the remaining population to maintain the artificial grouse moors - added to the already decimated population which was cleared from the land to make way for sheep. The iconic beauty of the area is wholly artificial; overgrazed, deforested, artificially managed - in effect something of an ecological desert. Devolution is gradually (very gradually) reversing this. The feeling of identity, though remains strong, and the concept of britishness has been fading gradually since the 1980's. Only in pockets of the West of Scotland is it very firmly in the minds of the sectarian bigots who remain tied to the Union Flag as a joint symbol of their unsavoury allegiance to the Orange Order.

[Bubbles]

However, Rose, most Scots - and not nationalists at that - do not feel british in any way. Many of my fellow countrymen voted NO in 2014 becuse they believed they were happy being 'subsidised' by Westminster (though that was NOT the case) whilst being able to cock a snook at britain at the same time. That, in my view, is dishonest. Scotland has never lost her identity - partly because the Union was not entirely a takeover; law, religion, and to some extent education, were always separate from Westminster - and since 1947, the NHS as well. The attitudes were hardened by history, and the ambiguity of the huntin' shootin' and fishin set which, while bringing very limited employment, emptied the Highlands of the remaining population to maintain the artificial grouse moors - added to the already decimated population which was cleared from the land to make way for sheep. The iconic beauty of the area is wholly artificial; overgrazed, deforested, artificially managed - in effect something of an ecological desert. Devolution is gradually (very gradually) reversing this. The feeling of identity, though remains strong, and the concept of britishness has been fading gradually since the 1980's. Only in pockets of the West of Scotland is it very firmly in the minds of the sectarian bigots who remain tied to the Union Flag as a joint symbol of their unsavoury allegiance to the Orange Order.

Separate identities are fine,  I have no issue with people's sense of identity until they use it to destroy or to hurt those with different identities or to set out to make others feel less or worthless.

Splitting the UK is to destroy us and our history.

I can't see why people can't enjoy their identities while being within the UK.

There is an element of spite which I don't find acceptable, a wish to hurt English people.

Hurt them for something they personally haven't done.

What ever happened in the past is gone, the perpetrators long dead.

 

[ippy]

I find the Scots to be antagonistic friends, I love having a go at the Scots and I equally love it when they strike back at the English, it would be a sad day for me if we have to split but is that was to be a part of the price for leaving the E U, I hope not, it would be worth it.

ippy   

[Aruntraveller]

But then, I am forgetting our greatest asset, the people, we did invent the modern world

So you are the ones to blame for Pokémon and Candy Crush.

Yer the spawn of Satan the lot of you.

PS I've just noticed that the programme know where to put an accent on Pokémon - I suppose your responsible for that as well

[Anchorman]

What 'history' are you talking about, Rose? The shared crown since 1603 was a catalyst for unrest, civil disobedience and outright war, here. Cromwell was not seen as a proto-democrat, but as a vile dictator. After 1707, the sad history of the destruction of the Gaelic culture, ethnic cleansing, repression, depopulation by force and the use of empiire as a sop to the economy whilst vile exploitation, genocide, famine and bloody suppression accompanied the Union flag on its' progress. That's why many up here call it the 'butcher's apron' and treat it with disdain. The 'equal and incorporating union' of 1707 was anything but - the Westminster parliament ignored the traditions and structure of the more egalitarian Scots parliament, in favour of a continuance of the daft trash of the English parliament with black rod, numpties in tights, and unelected peers, which were nothing to do with us whatsoever. So much for equality. We remember English tanks and regiments on the streets of Glasgow in 1918, because Westminster feared a revolution, and Scots were first in line for the bullet. And don't even START me on Thatcher. No, the history we remember up here has no commonality with Westminster.

[JP]

There was a time when I wanted the UK to remain the UK, but that time has passed.

Identity politics rule. I have moved from considering myself to be from Britain, to being from England and I sincerely hope there is another referendum as soon as possible, and that there is yes vote as I find myself increasingly unable to put up with the SNP moaning.

Sturgeon tactic, demand something from the UK government. Something in the best interests of Scotland and the Scottish people, but demand something impossible to get realistically or constitutionally and then when they don't get it, complain loudly and bitterly about how badly Westminster treat the Scottish people, and act against the best interests of Scotland and the Scottish people.

Please go.

[Nearly Sane]

There was a time when I wanted the UK to remain the UK, but that time has passed.

Identity politics rule. I have moved from considering myself to be from Britain, to being from England and I sincerely hope there is another referendum as soon as possible, and that there is yes vote as I find myself increasingly unable to put up with the SNP moaning.

Sturgeon tactic, demand something from the UK government. Something in the best interests of Scotland and the Scottish people, but demand something impossible to get realistically or constitutionally and then when they don't get it, complain loudly and bitterly about how badly Westminster treat the Scottish people, and act against the best interests of Scotland and the Scottish people.

Please go.

Sorry, this tactic of which you speak, I don't recognise it, could you outline an example?

[Gordon]

There was a time when I wanted the UK to remain the UK, but that time has passed.

Identity politics rule. I have moved from considering myself to be from Britain, to being from England and I sincerely hope there is another referendum as soon as possible, and that there is yes vote as I find myself increasingly unable to put up with the SNP moaning.

Sturgeon tactic, demand something from the UK government. Something in the best interests of Scotland and the Scottish people, but demand something impossible to get realistically or constitutionally and then when they don't get it, complain loudly and bitterly about how badly Westminster treat the Scottish people, and act against the best interests of Scotland and the Scottish people.

Please go.

I what way, for example, is pointing out that Brexit was rejected by Scots voters a tactic?

It is a simple fact.

[wigginhall]

It's interesting how the old English sense of entitlement is breaking down, in various ways.  Some people are trying to cling onto it, thus talking of 'our history', some are becoming bitter ('please go'), others are accepting of a break-up.   It reminds me to an extent of the ambivalence which existed over Ireland, a mixture of contempt, genuine affection, and entitlement.   Quite queasy making, especially as English nationalism shows its less attractive facets, e.g. racism.

[Bubbles]

It's interesting how the old English sense of entitlement is breaking down, in various ways.  Some people are trying to cling onto it, thus talking of 'our history', some are becoming bitter ('please go'), others are accepting of a break-up.   It reminds me to an extent of the ambivalence which existed over Ireland, a mixture of contempt, genuine affection, and entitlement.   Quite queasy making, especially as English nationalism shows its less attractive facets, e.g. racism.

What old English sense of entitlement?

What about your less attractive facets, which your post is revealing?

What about your own particular brand of racism?

You think you are above all that, hence the patronising post.

But it says so much about you Wigginhall.

I think you see in the English, what is actually within yourself.

It is our history.

[Aruntraveller]

What old English sense of entitlement?

What about your less attractive facets, which your post is revealing?

What about your own particular brand of racism?

You think you are above all that, hence the patronising post.

But it says so much about you Wigginhall.

I think you see in the English, what is actually within yourself.

I see no brand of racism in that post. Can you point it out to us?

[Bubbles]

I see no brand of racism in that post. Can you point it out to us?

Yes, wigginhalls description of the "English"

It might not be " racism" as in "ethnic minorities" or the colour of someone's skin, but it is the same thing.

Nationalism does that, even Scottish Nationalism.

Nationalism can be a form of racism.

[wigginhall]

What old English sense of entitlement?

What about your less attractive facets, which your post is revealing?

What about your own particular brand of racism?

You think you are above all that, hence the patronising post.

But it says so much about you Wigginhall.

I think you see in the English, what is actually within yourself.

It is our history.

Why don't you make it personal, it's so much more conducive to argument?

[Aruntraveller]

Well as far as I can see he described 3 attitudes to Scotland that I recognize in the English. Is that racist?

He commented on the nastier aspects of English nationalism. Is that racist?

I'm not following that part of your argument against his post