A Biblical contradiction - impossible to resolve? But please try!

[Owlswing]

King James Version

Exodus 22:18

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live


The Sixth Commandment

Thou shalt not kill


Will somebody please explain to me, exactly and precisely (preferably in simple teerms understandable by my simple mind!), how Christians are expected to obey both these instructions as, to my, admittedly pathetic, mind, it is impossible to do so.

[Aruntraveller]

It'll be a new covenant or some such escape clause.

It's almost like the Bible was written by politicians and lawyers such are the loopholes and exceptions contained therein.

[Nearly Sane]

King James Version

Exodus 22:18

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live


The Sixth Commandment

Thou shalt not kill


Will somebody please explain to me, exactly and precisely (preferably in simple teerms understandable by my simple mind!), how Christians are expected to obey both these instructions as, to my, admittedly pathetic, mind, it is impossible to do so.

Standard reply is that kill here is an effective mistranslation of 'murder' see below

http://www.biblestudy.org/question/what-does-thou-shall-not-kill-mean.html

[SqueakyVoice]

King James Version

Exodus 22:18

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live


The Sixth Commandment

Thou shalt not kill

The opposite of "suffer" is enjoy, so "Thou shalt enjoy that witches live".

I can put an extra couple of ...eths in there, if it'll make it any clearer...?

[Owlswing]

Standard reply is that kill here is an effective mistranslation of 'murder' see below

http://www.biblestudy.org/question/what-does-thou-shall-not-kill-mean.html

Yes, I see.

However the article quotes, and I quote:

Exodus 1:16-17

and

Exodus 21:12-14

thus excluding the specific verse that I am questioning.

So, get-out clause, in this instance, sadly, rejected.

[Nearly Sane]

Yes, I see.

However the article quotes, and I quote:

Exodus 1:16-17

and

Exodus 21:12-14

thus excluding the specific verse that I am questioning.

So, get-out clause, in this instance, sadly, rejected.

except that the verse they use is the same word translated so they would argue it is the same issue based on the sane logic.

[Owlswing]

The opposite of "suffer" is enjoy, so "Thou shalt enjoy that witches live".

I can put an extra couple of ...eths in there, if it'll make it any clearer...?

Unfortunately your misinterpretation get-out clause is also rejected on theground that that is NOT the way that it has been used for centuries.

The Inquistion certainly did not see it your way; to the tune of about 90,000 (mostly) completely innocent lives and many many hours of SUFFERING under torture.

[Owlswing]

 except that the verse they use is the same word translated so they would argue it is the same issue based on the sane logic.

Which particular word, please?

[Nearly Sane]

Unfortunately your misinterpretation get-out clause is also rejected on theground that that is NOT the way that it has been used for centuries.

The Inquistion certainly did not see it your way; to the tune of about 90,000 (mostly) completely innocent lives and many many hours of SUFFERING under torture.

  Squeaky's post was tongue in cheek.

[Owlswing]

Squeaky's post was tongue in cheek.

My OP is not!

[Nearly Sane]

Which particular word, please?

ratsach

[Nearly Sane]

My OP is not!

And?

[Owlswing]

ratsach

Where does this word appear? No-where in the KJV as far as I know.

[Nearly Sane]

While we are on the subject, what do you think of the article below, which argues that very little of the killiing of witches was related to the Inquisition?


http://draeconin.com/database/witchhunt.htm

[Nearly Sane]

Where does this word appear? No-where in the KJV as far as I know.

it's what was translated from. It's the same word in both verses.  The logic for it being translated, as it is in most bibles now, as murder is the same in both cases.

[Owlswing]

It's what was translated from. It's the same word in both verses.  The logic for it being translated, as it is in most bibles now, as murder is the same in both cases.

My point exactly!

[Nearly Sane]

My point exactly!

no, between the two versions of kill, not the suffer the witch to live.

[Owlswing]

no, between the two versions of kill, not the suffer the witch to live.

The meaning of suffer, at the time of th KJV translation, was allow. This was used because James intended to use this (mistranslated as it happens) verse to top his briother-in-law who had designs on his throne.

In the matter of your quoted article - I will get back to you on it - when I have had time to "read, note and inwardly digest" as I have no intention of making comments or drawing conclusions which almost certainly will be used to ridcule either myself, my beliefs or fellow pagans and witches, or all of the above, as has happened previously, by saying anything in a manner precipitate.

I hope you will understand.

I shall, however, be contacting Professor Ronald Hutton (Professor of History at Bristol University) for his comments as I value his insight and wisdom when looking at the views of American historians and witches. These are quite often tangential to those of historians and witches in this country.

This may take a while but I will be back to the subject as soon as I possibly can.

One small point is that the article is 20 years old and 20 years is a damn long time when it comes to historical treatises, especially those which may be deemed contentious in the academic fraternity interested in this particular period.

[Hope]

King James Version

Exodus 22:18

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live


The Sixth Commandment

Thou shalt not kill


Will somebody please explain to me, exactly and precisely (preferably in simple teerms understandable by my simple mind!), how Christians are expected to obey both these instructions as, to my, admittedly pathetic, mind, it is impossible to do so.

OK, Owl, lets see if you can do a bit of the work yourself.  You have used an Old Testament reference, so you will need to do a bit of Hebrew research.  What is the Hebrew word that the translators of the AV decided to translate as 'kill'?  I suppose that you could try to use the Septuagint - but it is, in itself, already a translation.

I'll point out that English has a similar dichotomy.  What's the difference between murder and judicial killing or what soldiers are trained to do - killing enemies?

[Nearly Sane]

Yes, I know what suffer means here.  I'm not stating that there is not an instruction for people to be killed. My position is rather that the two verses using 'kill' I.e. are talking about murder and not about some form of judicial ki!!ing.


Incidentally, there is an argument that witch is a mistranslation of poisoner, down to Jamie 6/1.

No problem in the article, I hope it will provoke an interesting discussion for you.

[Hope]

In the matter of your quoted article - I will get back to you on it - when I have had time to "read, note and inwardly digest" as I have no intention of making comments or drawing conclusions which almost certainly will be used to ridcule either myself, my beliefs or fellow pagans and witches, or all of the above, as has happened previously, by saying anything in a manner precipitate.

Owl, I think the wording of your OP points to a degree of ridiculousness - not of witchcraft or other witches - but of you as someone who doesn't make the effort to research issues you question.

[Owlswing]

OK, Owl, lets see if you can do a bit of the work yourself.  You have used an Old Testament reference, so you will need to do a bit of Hebrew research.  What is the Hebrew word that the translators of the AV decided to translate as 'kill'?  I suppose that you could try to use the Septuagint - but it is, in itself, already a translation.

I'll point out that English has a similar dichotomy.  What's the difference between murder and judicial killing or what soldiers are trained to do - killing enemies?

I have researched the Hebrew and it has been explained to me by the Curator of Ancient Manuscripts (Hebrew) at the British Library that, at the time of the translation to the Septuagint the Hebrew, a highly contextual language, was so archaic that even some Talmudic scholars were not totally sure what some of the Hebrew words actually meant in the context that they were written.

Also, please see #1 which gives a name to the content of your post above!

[Nearly Sane]

Owl, I think the wording of your OP points to a degree of ridiculousness - not of witchcraft or other witches - but of you as someone who doesn't make the effort to research issues you question.

let he who is without sin etc etc

[Owlswing]

Owl, I think the wording of your OP points to a degree of ridiculousness - not of witchcraft or other witches - but of you as someone who doesn't make the effort to research issues you question.

I think that researching both the history of witchcraft and the relationship between Christianity and the modern popular conception of modern witchcraft almost continuously for the last nine years, with the help of Professor Ronald Hutton (mentioned above) makes anonsense of your comment.

Just because I think your religion, as you think mine, is based upon a load of crap does not mean that I do not (sometimes) know what i am talking about, and the same applies to you!

Your arrogance on matters pagan and witchy is way, way, beyond your factual knowledge of the subject.

[Owlswing]

Let he who is without sin etc etc

OUCH!

I look forward to the gentleman's response - if, of course, he bothers to honour you with one!