A Biblical contradiction - impossible to resolve? But please try!

[Nearly Sane]

OUCH!

I look forward to the gentleman's response - if, of course, he bothers to honour you with one!

We have to be careful with the whole claim to authority we often see. We are all capable of knowing more, doing more research so I don't see how we can easily make progress whilst merely asserting people haven't done research. I think it's up to the person who wants to say that to lay out exactly what they think is being missed.

[ippy]

OK, Owl, lets see if you can do a bit of the work yourself.  You have used an Old Testament reference, so you will need to do a bit of Hebrew research.  What is the Hebrew word that the translators of the AV decided to translate as 'kill'?  I suppose that you could try to use the Septuagint - but it is, in itself, already a translation.

I'll point out that English has a similar dichotomy.  What's the difference between murder and judicial killing or what soldiers are trained to do - killing enemies?

All of your translations etc Hope, I suppose in some ways you are trying to make some sense of your religious beliefs.

I don't suppose you're the only one, probably it's a pursuit of millions and I'm sure you're aware of this; how come so many millions follow and have followed these pursuits and not one of you has ever managed to prove there's anything in these magical, mystical and superstitious beliefs that you all seem to hold so dear have ever actually happened?

ippy
 

[jeremyp]

Yes, I know what suffer means here.  I'm not stating that there is not an instruction for people to be killed. My position is rather that the two verses using 'kill' I.e. are talking about murder and not about some form of judicial ki!!ing.

If it were "thou shalt not commit murder" it would be tautological.

[Nearly Sane]

If it were "thou shalt not commit murder" it would be tautological.

Son the murder laws in the UK are tautological? The point is there us such a thing as legal killing.

[jeremyp]

Son the murder laws in the UK are tautological? The point is there us such a thing as legal killing.

I'm not aware that the laws of the UK just say "don't commit murder". Murder is defined as certain classes of killing (actually, it's defined as killing somebody but with certain exceptions e.g. self defence).

A law that just says "thou shalt not commit murder is the same as one that says "it is illegal to kill somebody illegally". If that is the correct translation of the commandment, it immediately provides the resolution to Owlswing's contradiction  because murder is simply defined to exclude the killing of witches (and gays and female adulterers and slaves as long as they survive a week and the Canaanites and people who work on Saturdays and blasphemers etc etc etc).

[Nearly Sane]

I'm not aware that the laws of the UK just say "don't commit murder". Murder is defined as certain classes of killing (actually, it's defined as killing somebody but with certain exceptions e.g. self defence).

A law that just says "thou shalt not commit murder is the same as one that says "it is illegal to kill somebody illegally". If that is the correct translation of the commandment, it immediately provides the resolution to Owlswing's contradiction  because murder is simply defined to exclude the killing of witches (and gays and female adulterers and slaves as long as they survive a week and the Canaanites and people who work on Saturdays and blasphemers etc etc etc).

UK laws define what is murder and then say don't do it. These things have a context, denying any other context in the bible, denies any context in law

[jeremyp]

UK laws define what is murder and then say don't do it.

Exactly.

These things have a context, denying any other context in the bible, denies any context in law

And the context in the Bible (at least in the KJV) includes killing witches as being an exception.

[Nearly Sane]

Exactly.
And the context in the Bible (at least in the KJV) includes killing witches as being an exception.

no. It includes killing 'witches' as being legal and not murder. Not so much an exception as a matter of definition of what is murder.

[Owlswing]

Exactly.
And the context in the Bible (at least in the KJV) includes killing witches as being an exception.

No! Exodus 22:18 states that it is required to kill a witch - the Sixth states that ANY killing is forbidden!

[jeremyp]

No! Exodus 22:18 states that it is required to kill a witch - the Sixth states that ANY killing is forbidden!

Only in the KJV. Other Bibles have "do not commit murder" which is tautological in itself but when read in context with "kill witches" is not a contradiction.

[floo]

Talking of killing witches, the last witch to be killed in my home island was supposed to have suffered their fate in one of the fields belonging to my childhood home!

[Brownie]

That explains everything, floo.

[floo]

Some old houses in my home island have a step on the chimney so the witches can take their ease when flying around on their broomsticks. When I am over there it is so useful, especially at my age, flying around on a broomstick can be quite tiring, especially when very windy! 

It is a pity I can't post photos on the forum, I would display a picture of my broomstick!

[Owlswing]

Only in the KJV. Other Bibles have "do not commit murder" which is tautological in itself but when read in context with "kill witches" is not a contradiction.

Bibles dated before or after the KJV?

[Owlswing]

Talking of killing witches, the last witch to be killed in my home island was supposed to have suffered their fate in one of the fields belonging to my childhood home!

Your home island?

[Owlswing]

Some old houses in my home island have a step on the chimney so the witches can take their ease when flying around on their broomsticks. When I am over there it is so useful, especially at my age, flying around on a broomstick can be quite tiring, especially when very windy! 

It is a pity I can't post photos on the forum, I would display a picture of my broomstick!

LOL? Maybe not.

[floo]

LOL? Maybe not.

I agree it could be very scary indeed.

[Owlswing]

I agree it could be very scary indeed.

I meant that, as a witch, I am not sure if your comment is funny.

[floo]

I meant that, as a witch, I am not sure if your comment is funny.

Not with you?

[Nearly Sane]

Not with you?

Owlswing is a witch and isn't sure he finds your broomstick comment to be funny.

[trippymonkey]

I might be a witch as I live in Nelson, next to Pendle Hill, in the north west, where the Pendle witch business started !!!!

Nick AKA Lucifer's Child !!!?!??!

[Hope]

And the context in the Bible (at least in the KJV) includes killing witches as being an exception.

Actually, the context of the KJV doesn't involve an exception, jp - because when one takes the larger picture of the various references, they tend to deal with individual actions, as opposed to state permitted actions.  As NS suggests, they define what is and what is not state permitted

[Hope]

Bibles dated before or after the KJV?

Good question, Owl.  The Wycliffe Bible, which predates the KJV by some 250 years, gives the commandment as 'Thou shalt not slay'.  'Slay' tends to imply something done in the heat of anger, rather than anything accidental or in self defence.

[Hope]

... the Sixth states that ANY killing is forbidden!

And where do you get the idea that the commandment forbids 'ANY' killing, Owl?

[Sassy]

King James Version

Exodus 22:18

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live


The Sixth Commandment

Thou shalt not kill


Will somebody please explain to me, exactly and precisely (preferably in simple teerms understandable by my simple mind!), how Christians are expected to obey both these instructions as, to my, admittedly pathetic, mind, it is impossible to do so.

Thou shalt not commit murder....

 Exodus 20:13: “You shall not murder.”

There is a difference between putting someone to death for committing murder and actually murdering someone. One is legal and is punishment for criminal offence. The other is unlawful killing. War is not murder it is lawful killing. Being a witch was against the law and was punishable by death in the time of the Israelites in the desert. It is not punishable today because those laws applied to the people of that covenant.

How do you not know the difference between lawful and unlawful killing?

You don't have a contradiction you have a deliberate error created by you refusing to face the fact that lawful and unlawful killing exists? There is nothing sincere about what you have written. It simply lacks discernment which any reasoning person would have been able to use to reach the right conclusion.