A Biblical contradiction - impossible to resolve? But please try!

[Nearly Sane]

He might come back and debate, Hope.

Owl, this is what Wiki says:
"Thou shalt not kill (LXX; οὐ φονεύσεις), You shall not murder (Hebrew לֹא תִּרְצָח lo tirṣaḥ) or You shall not kill (KJV), is a moral imperative included as one of the Ten Commandments in the Torah,[1] specifically Exodus 20:13 and Deuteronomy 5:17. The imperative to not kill is in the context of unlawful killing resulting in bloodguilt.[2]

The Hebrew Bible contains numerous prohibitions against unlawful killing, but also contains prescriptive imperatives for lawful killing in the context of warfare, capital punishment, and self-defense."

he's been arguing through the thread. You may disagree but why present as if he hasn't?

[Maeght]

All about translation and interpretation.

[Owlswing]

Which is the question of translation

I am getting the impression that you are being as obtuse as Hope and Sassy.

When were you, ar anyone, ytaughgt in Sunday School or Church that the Sixth Commandment and Exodus 22:18 say this but they mean that?


Never! Never! And you know it. 

This is my final word on the subject because, I don't know about Hope and Sassy, but I am of te opinion that I am being deliberately wound up here to see if I can be made to lose my rag and post something Modable!

Not happening!

[Brownie]

he's been arguing through the thread. You may disagree but why present as if he hasn't?

Because I feel he just hasn't grasped what one or two of us are trying to explain!  I'm surprised you can't see that;  it's not unusual for a lot of posters on here to home in on a particular point and miss the others, especially if the subject concerns something about which they feel strongly.  Owlswing is no different to anyone else in that respect and doesn't deserve to be highlighted for it.  I thought if we presented things in a gentle fashion, without exasperation, he might have a better understanding even if he didn't ultimately agree.

However it now appears that Owlswing has left the discussion, which is his right, so I'm not going to prolong the agony by saying any more on this topic.

[Maeght]

I am getting the impression that you are being as obtusre as Hope and Sassy.

When were you, ar anyone, ytaughgt in Sunday School or Church that the Sixth Commandment and Exodus 22:18 say this but they mean that?


Never! Never! And you know it. 

This is my final word on the subject because, I don't know about Hope and Sassy, but I am of te opinion that I am being deliberately wound up here to see if I can be made to lose my rag and post something Modable!

Not happening!

Just because something was taught in Sunday school doesn't mean that that is the original meaning of the phrase. What was being taught was a translation and interpretation of earlier texts. Not sure why you think pointing this out is an attempt to wind you up.

[Nearly Sane]

I am getting the impression that you are being as obtusre as Hope and Sassy.

When were you, ar anyone, ytaughgt in Sunday School or Church that the Sixth Commandment and Exodus 22:18 say this but they mean that?


Never! Never! And you know it. 

This is my final word on the subject because, I don't know about Hope and Sassy, but I am of te opinion that I am being deliberately wound up here to see if I can be made to lose my rag and post something Modable!

Not happening!

I have no interest in making you 'lose your rag'. As to being taught about the fifth commandment, please see the attached link which covers the RC catechism, note you need to read all five pages on it to get the full position that I was taught, so you need to read first page and press next four tines.


http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7Y.HTM

[Hope]

When were you, ar anyone, ytaughgt in Sunday School or Church that the Sixth Commandment and Exodus 22:18 say this but they mean that?

Owl, I was taught in Sunday School, at school as a whole and at home (my father was a history teacher before he was ordained) that one has to question transalations of documents to see whether the translation in front of you actually reflects the meaning of the original wording.  OK, this involves a degree of research - which has been made much easier with the advent of the internet - but it applied as much to translations of the Odyssey or the Aeneid - or the Bible.

This is my final word on the subject because, I don't know about Hope and Sassy, but I am of te opinion that I am being deliberately wound up here to see if I can be made to lose my rag and post something Modable!

Sorry to see that you are no longer willing to discuss the issue, let alone put your opinion forward in a more reasoned fashion than thus far.

[Owlswing]

Owl, I was taught in Sunday School, at school as a whole and at home (my father was a history teacher before he was ordained) that one has to question transalations of documents to see whether the translation in front of you actually reflects the meaning of the original wording.  OK, this involves a degree of research - which has been made much easier with the advent of the internet - but it applied as much to translations of the Odyssey or the Aeneid - or the Bible.
Sorry to see that you are no longer willing to discuss the issue, let alone put your opinion forward in a more reasoned fashion than thus far.

Once again I venture to suggest that your experiences at school etc were different to mine, when I was in the Army - and here is the ridiculous part of it - it was still read by the Padre as "thou shalt not kill" with no reference to possible differences or errors in translation.

As to my being "no longer willing to discuss the issue" you never discuss - you pontificate! No point of view but yours is valid!

Tough - I disagree and I have had enough of your preaching error and lack of research at me!

   

[jeremyp]

Bibles dated before or after the KJV?

Well, for instance, the NRSV has "murder" and it is considered to be a better translation than the KJV.

[jeremyp]

Mmm we have to be careful here since, as you will know, it is not certain that witch in 'you shall not suffer a witch to live, is another questionable translation.

The NRSV has: "You shall not permit a female sorcerer to live"

[Nearly Sane]

The NRSV has: "You shall not permit a female sorcerer to live"

and in many ways that is justifiable as a translation but what does that mean?

[ippy]

Sorcerer? Couldn't be anything similar to sorcerers or witches often mentioned in the ' Harry Potter' series of works? Equally fictitious, unless of course?

Why bother to discuss as though there's some kind of importance attached to these ideas, unless there's solid foundation for any kind of or for belief in sorcerers or witches to be found and established.

Why not discuss the best way to deal with and treat unicorns; wouldn't that be equally futile?

ippy

[Owlswing]

Sorcerer? Couldn't be anything similar to sorcerers or witches often mentioned in the ' Harry Potter' series of works? Equally fictitious, unless of course?

Why bother to discuss as though there's some kind of importance attached to these ideas, unless there's solid foundation for any kind of or for belief in sorcerers or witches to be found and established.

Why not discuss the best way to deal with and treat unicorns; wouldn't that be equally futile?

ippy

I see, I do not exist to you.

[trippymonkey]

Turn him into a toad !!! Turn Him Into A TOAD !!!!!

[Khatru]

Lots of talk about the biblical definition of "killing" but not much about the biblical definition of "witch".

Does the Bible define what a witch is?

Are we told that it's someone who causes disease, crops to fail, pregnant mothers to miscarry, cows milk to sour, etc?

[jeremyp]

and in many ways that is justifiable as a translation but what does that mean?

It seems pretty obvious to me. It means kill the women who can do magic.

[Sassy]

Once again I venture to suggest that your experiences at school etc were different to mine, when I was in the Army - and here is the ridiculous part of it - it was still read by the Padre as "thou shalt not kill" with no reference to possible differences or errors in translation.

As to my being "no longer willing to discuss the issue" you never discuss - you pontificate! No point of view but yours is valid!

Tough - I disagree and I have had enough of your preaching error and lack of research at me!

   

Your padre probably read:  Jesus saying: I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father, but by me.
So what is Jesus telling?  What is his way, truth and life?

Your argument doesn't hold water since you already cannot show you understand these words or the fact you show the deliberate lack of purposely ignoring the obvious the bible teaches such as lawful and unlawful killing. Should you really be trying to discuss matters you have a closed mind about, and deliberately ignore the obvious answers to?  NO

[Sassy]

Well, for instance, the NRSV has "murder" and it is considered to be a better translation than the KJV.

In the light of use in Hebrew, Latin, Greek and English. The fact we know the unlawful killing and lawful killing the later version would have displayed the usage term to make it easier to read. When the Hebrew translations done there was not always a word in Greek/English to represent the Hebrew definition so the nearest would have been used. But a margin mark/ reference made to explain.

[jeremyp]

In the light of use in Hebrew, Latin, Greek and English. The fact we know the unlawful killing and lawful killing the later version would have displayed the usage term to make it easier to read. When the Hebrew translations done there was not always a word in Greek/English to represent the Hebrew definition so the nearest would have been used. But a margin mark/ reference made to explain.

Would you care to rephrase that in English to make it easier to read?

[Sassy]

The truth remains that witchcraft and other powers were all based in the worship of the male forces of nature. That they believe powers are in the earth so spells cast, herbs mixed and potions etc using the things of nature. Worship of animals still in many religions today they place a significant part.
But God is the unknown force who created nature and life.
A force for good which is about the welfare of humans and them knowing the truth.

One has to ask why the Egyptians well educated in their times past knew that there was no power greater than the finger of God.

Exodus 8:19 (KJV)

19 Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said.

Luke 11:20
(KJV)

20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.


There is no greater power even magicians knew when up against God himself and his power there is no other power greater.  Pharaoh believed he was a god and here was the Moses sent by God, showing no man or power is greater than the true Gods.

[Sassy]

Would you care to rephrase that in English to make it easier to read?

It is easy a word used nearest to the definition but a note made to show it was different from the Hebrew. But nearest to it.

[ippy]

I see, I do not exist to you.

I'm sure you think you're a witch owl, I think I'm an average ordinary male person, we're all free to think whatever we like to think.

ippy

[Hope]

I'm sure you think you're a witch owl, I think I'm an average ordinary male person, we're all free to think whatever we like to think.

ippy

and what's an 'average, ordinary' male, ippy.  Didn't there were any such beings!!   

[ippy]

and what's an 'average, ordinary' male, ippy.  Didn't there were any such beings!!   

OED Hope, average, ding ding, average.

ippy 

[Owlswing]

Lots of talk about the biblical definition of "killing" but not much about the biblical definition of "witch".

Does the Bible define what a witch is?

Are we told that it's someone who causes disease, crops to fail, pregnant mothers to miscarry, cows milk to sour, etc?

That would br a BIG FAT "NO"