TTIP and CETA

[Hope]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37749236

Thank God for the Walloons who have stood up to pressure to accept the terms of the Canadian European Trade Agreement, which, like its US/EU counterpart, has serious flaws and shortcomings.  The US/EU (TTIP) agreement will potentially open the National Health Service and other core services to American takeovers and buy-outs, likely resulting in the development of an American-style insurance-based system here and elsewhere in the EU.  Trade agreements like these have been being carried out largely in secret for 10+ years, and in the case of TTIP, the leaders of the EU have allowed the Americans to lay down controls as to its availability for scrutiny by all but the EU negotiators.  As I understand it, TTIP can't come into existence without the existence of the CETA - so hopefully the stance taken by the Walloons will at the very least delay the former - long enough for sufficient opposition to be built up.

[L.A.]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37749236

Thank God for the Walloons who have stood up to pressure to accept the terms of the Canadian European Trade Agreement, which, like its US/EU counterpart, has serious flaws and shortcomings.  The US/EU (TTIP) agreement will potentially open the National Health Service and other core services to American takeovers and buy-outs, likely resulting in the development of an American-style insurance-based system here and elsewhere in the EU.  Trade agreements like these have been being carried out largely in secret for 10+ years, and in the case of TTIP, the leaders of the EU have allowed the Americans to lay down controls as to its availability for scrutiny by all but the EU negotiators.  As I understand it, TTIP can't come into existence without the existence of the CETA - so hopefully the stance taken by the Walloons will at the very least delay the former - long enough for sufficient opposition to be built up.

I'm not sure that I share your view of the potential negative effects of CETA, but what this fiasco does demonstrates is just how difficult it would be for the UK to get any kind of favourable post-Brexit trade agreement.

[jeremyp]

The US/EU (TTIP) agreement will potentially open the National Health Service and other core services to American takeovers and buy-outs, likely resulting in the development of an American-style insurance-based system here and elsewhere in the EU.

Perhaps you could explain why that might be a possibility. I can't envisage any way a trade deal could force us to abandon the NHS.

[ProfessorDavey]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37749236

Thank God for the Walloons who have stood up to pressure to accept the terms of the Canadian European Trade Agreement, which, like its US/EU counterpart, has serious flaws and shortcomings.  The US/EU (TTIP) agreement will potentially open the National Health Service and other core services to American takeovers and buy-outs, likely resulting in the development of an American-style insurance-based system here and elsewhere in the EU.  Trade agreements like these have been being carried out largely in secret for 10+ years, and in the case of TTIP, the leaders of the EU have allowed the Americans to lay down controls as to its availability for scrutiny by all but the EU negotiators.  As I understand it, TTIP can't come into existence without the existence of the CETA - so hopefully the stance taken by the Walloons will at the very least delay the former - long enough for sufficient opposition to be built up.

Don't forget that this was the kind of deal that Boris (and others) claimed would be a shining example of what the UK/EU relationship might be like post-Breixt.

In other words a deal that fails to materialise after a decade of negotiation.

The problem for the UK is that the cards are massively stacked in favour of the EU in the negotiations. It is much more important for the UK to get a deal than the EU so the latter can much more easily play hard ball. And, of course, any deal cannot be ratified unless all EU member states agree. So you only need one with a specific local issue that means they don't want to play ball for the deal not to materialise.

[ad_orientem]

I hope neither agreement goes through too. It gives corporations far too much power which is really the last thing we want to do. It also lowers standards in things like food safety. More globalisation is bad. We need to be stepping back.

[L.A.]

Don't forget that this was the kind of deal that Boris (and others) claimed would be a shining example of what the UK/EU relationship might be like post-Breixt.

In other words a deal that fails to materialise after a decade of negotiation.

The problem for the UK is that the cards are massively stacked in favour of the EU in the negotiations. It is much more important for the UK to get a deal than the EU so the latter can much more easily play hard ball. And, of course, any deal cannot be ratified unless all EU member states agree. So you only need one with a specific local issue that means they don't want to play ball for the deal not to materialise.

All that was completely obvious before the referendum, but we were constantly told "The Germans will still want to sell us cars".

Well, maybe they would, but when a single Belgian province can scupper a trade-deal I wouldn't hold my breath.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Hope,

http://www.thenational.scot/news/trade-unions-and-charities-fight-lead-national-day-of-action-against-ttip.16653

http://www.globaljustice.org.uk/

http://www.waronwant.org/

I quite like this article,

http://www.waronwant.org/media/rush-oppose-ttip-%E2%80%93-and-what-it-means-ceta

And just like TTIP, CETA is also designed to prevent the renationalisation of public services, at a time when more and more people are beginning to recognise the myths of privatisation from its repeated failures.

The myths of privatisation from its repeated failures.

For me it all seems like some kind of race to the bottom, charging Joe public over the top prices for damaged or dodgy goods, greed and profit are king, what happened to making quality goods that last, is it just me, am I turning into a grumpy old man, where's the pride in giving your customer the best service possible.

In other news

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37755137

It will be a orange in wee Johnny's stocking instead of that train set he dreamed of.

Gonnagle.

[L.A.]

For me it all seems like some kind of race to the bottom, charging Joe public over the top prices for damaged or dodgy goods, greed and profit are king, what happened to making quality goods that last, is it just me, am I turning into a grumpy old man, where's the pride in giving your customer the best service possible.

Hi Gonnagle,

I always think that people who lament the passing of our nationalised industries must either have very bad memories or have never experienced them - THEY WERE CRAP.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Lapsed,

Am I lamenting days gone past? Maybe I am, things were better in the good old days yes there is probably a lot of the grumpy old man syndrome at play but this rush we have to privatise has not worked, I am reminded of Matthew 6:24, you cannot serve two masters, either we are in charge, our needs are top of the agenda or the share holders are in charge.

Of course there is a third option, share holders realise that investment now will reap long term profits, short term greed versus long term profits, this is not rocket science, I am a lazy sod, I will always use a company or goods that gives me repeated value for money and great service, in fact I will always pay over the top prices if it means excellent service or goods.

Renationalisation of our rail and bus services, we can then hold government to account instead of some faceless company, of course government can say, well if you want a better service then you need to pay, for me I would see it as investing in the countries long term future, I would not watch as my money is squirreled away by some faceless fat cat, a simple fact of life, most people need to travel to work, and that should not be left to the whims of shareholders.

Gonnagle.

[jeremyp]

Renationalisation of our rail and bus services

I'm not saying it's a shining example now, but British Rail was utterly crap. Renationalisation is not the answer.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jeremyp,

Renationalisation is not the answer.

Then what is?? Privatisation has not worked, services are provided on a profit scale, bus services are axed or rerouted due to profit, I will bet that near you there is a community who are up in arms over a companies decision to close a bus route.

Travel to and from work should not be a hardship, employers want all their employees to arrive at work happy and rested.

And please remember, this is 2016, we have learned, we are not at the whim of Unions, Maggie and her cronies have clipped their wings, and the fact that we can learn from past mistakes, we should forget the bad old days and move forward, renationalisation is not a step backwards, it is realising we have made a mistake, keeping the country running is part of government, if the citizen has trouble arriving for work or is late, then the country suffers.

Gonnagle.

[L.A.]

Dear Lapsed,

Am I lamenting days gone past? Maybe I am, things were better in the good old days yes there is probably a lot of the grumpy old man syndrome at play but this rush we have to privatise has not worked, I am reminded of Matthew 6:24, you cannot serve two masters, either we are in charge, our needs are top of the agenda or the share holders are in charge.

Of course there is a third option, share holders realise that investment now will reap long term profits, short term greed versus long term profits, this is not rocket science, I am a lazy sod, I will always use a company or goods that gives me repeated value for money and great service, in fact I will always pay over the top prices if it means excellent service or goods.

Renationalisation of our rail and bus services, we can then hold government to account instead of some faceless company, of course government can say, well if you want a better service then you need to pay, for me I would see it as investing in the countries long term future, I would not watch as my money is squirreled away by some faceless fat cat, a simple fact of life, most people need to travel to work, and that should not be left to the whims of shareholders.

Gonnagle.

I agree that there is plenty of room for improvement, but if you have choice, you have no one to blame but yourself if you are paying over the odds for a product whether it is a tin of beans or your gas/electric supplies.

I agree with Jeremy, British Rail was certainly no shining example and any attempts to re nationalise the railways would be a massive waste of public money - and would result in worse performance and an investment freeze.

There probably is a case for penalising some of these companies for poor performance, but much of the recent rail disruption for example, is a direct result of industrial action.

[Nearly Sane]

I agree that there is plenty of room for improvement, but if you have choice, you have no one to blame but yourself if you are paying over the odds for a product whether it is a tin of beans or your gas/electric supplies.

I agree with Jeremy, British Rail was certainly no shining example and any attempts to re nationalise the railways would be a massive waste of public money - and would result in worse performance and an investment freeze.

There probably is a case for penalising some of these companies for poor performance, but much of the recent rail disruption for example, is a direct result of industrial action.

there isn't an alternative supplier in nearly all cases. The idea that an individual has the power to affect prices for effective monopolies is laughable.

[Aruntraveller]

if you have choice,

But very often you don't if you are on a particular rail route. So competition in the true sense does not exist. You end up with a cartel.

[Hope]

Perhaps you could explain why that might be a possibility. I can't envisage any way a trade deal could force us to abandon the NHS.

I didn't say anything about abandoning the NHS, Jeremy. I said that TTIP will open just about everything to US businesses to buy up. And before you point out that this is just the Tory party at work, I'd point out that this is being negotiating by a largely Socialist EU bureaucracy.

[L.A.]

there isn't an alternative supplier in nearly all cases. The idea that an individual has the power to affect prices for effective monopolies is laughable.

Have you got an example? We have a choice of suppliers for most services.

[Nearly Sane]

Have you got an example? We have a choice of suppliers for most services.

We are talking about train operators here. Most direct routes are effective monopolies

[L.A.]

But very often you don't if you are on a particular rail route. So competition in the true sense does not exist. You end up with a cartel.

Maybe, but you don't have to travel by rail. There is bus, car, Uber or even flying in some cases.

[Aruntraveller]

Maybe, but you don't have to travel by rail. There is bus, car, Uber or even flying in some cases.

Goal posts taken down and moved to a pitch at the other end of the country.

You can't claim denationalization of the railways is a good thing because you have the alternative of air, car or bus. That's a rubbish argument.

[Harrowby Hall]

I'm not saying it's a shining example now, but British Rail was utterly crap. Renationalisation is not the answer.

During the last few years of its existence, BR was actually improving - Robert Reid (the second) and John Welsby were addressing many of the ingrained problems. The privatisation model invented by John Major and friends was nothing more than a lawyers charter. It dismantled the vertical structure of BR and replaced it with innumerable contracts between infrastructure and operating and train ownership companies: operating companies hauled trains owned by someone else over tracks owned by yet a third company.

I think that one problem with the UK model of public ownership was its capital structure: nationalised companies were directly financed by the Treasury - incompetent ministers and civil servants had the direct opportunity to royally fuck-up the whole operation. Perhaps if nationalised companies were structured like joint stock companies and answerable to the government  as their shareholder and management given operational responsibility to achieve objectives, they would have performed better.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Lapsed,

Maybe, but you don't have to travel by rail. There is bus, car, Uber or even flying in some cases.

Or you could do what Dame Maggie asked and get on yer bike.

And no ( how many times in a day can a man be so wrong ) for some they only have one choice, they do not have the luxury of choice, not to worry old son, yer Tory thinking is a shining example to us all

Gonnagle.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Harrowby,

Nice post

incompetent ministers and civil servants had the direct opportunity to royally fuck-up the whole operation.

Exactly, we have moved on, we can learn from past mistakes.

Gonnnagle.

[L.A.]

We are talking about train operators here. Most direct routes are effective monopolies

To an extent that is true, but as I pointed out to Trentvoyager, rail travel has to compete with other forms of transport and they also have to compete with other rail companies when bidding for their contract.

Rail is quite an expensive form of transport so in common with most European countries, the industry receives subsidies from the government and the government controls prices for certain journeys. All that means that the price that a passenger pays for a particular journey may or may not reflect some of that subsidy.

I'll be the first to admit that the system is far from perfect, but I can't readily think of a better one - certainly not re-nationalisation.

[Nearly Sane]

Why is it that rail seems to work better on the Continent?

[L.A.]

Dear Lapsed,

Or you could do what Dame Maggie asked and get on yer bike.

And no ( how many times in a day can a man be so wrong ) for some they only have one choice, they do not have the luxury of choice, not to worry old son, yer Tory thinking is a shining example to us all

Gonnagle.

We all have choice Gonnagle - even deciding not to make a choice is a choice.