TTIP and CETA

[Aruntraveller]

Why is it that rail seems to work better on the Continent?

Long term planning. Investment. Not buggering around with things too much. Stuff like that.

[L.A.]

Why is it that rail seems to work better on the Continent?

I'm pretty sure that it is purely down to the level of government subsidies that the industry receives.

[Nearly Sane]

I'm pretty sure that it is purely down to the level of government subsidies that the industry receives.

which then surely makes a mockery of the idea of market forces that you want to champion.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Lapsed, ( who luv's ya baby, I do )

I'll be the first to admit that the system is far from perfect

Understatement of the week, people up and down this little island of ours are paying over the top prices and not receiving the goods, and yes in part that could be because of industrial action, peoples lives and jobs are at risk, I would rather blame government than some fat cat who is only looking at keeping his shareholders happy.

But then, I do blame government, a Tory government hell bent on little government.

Gonnagle.

[L.A.]

which then surely makes a mockery of the idea of market forces that you want to champion.

Why would that be?

Obviously if a government decide to subsidise a commodity that will influence the price. When this happens there are often unintended consequences which is why most sensible government try to avoid such interventions, but that doesn't undermine any of the fundamentals of economics.

[Nearly Sane]

Why would that be?

Obviously if a government decide to subsidise a commodity that will influence the price. When this happens there are often unintended consequences which is why most sensible government try to avoid such interventions, but that doesn't undermine any of the fundamentals of economics.

Except the higher level of subsidy seems to have a much better level of service as well as cheaper prices.

As ever the idea that economics works like a science is based on a fallacious assumption of a perfect market that does not and cannot exist

[L.A.]

Except the higher level of subsidy seems to have a much better level of service as well as cheaper prices.

If cheap rail travel were considered to a national priority, you might think that the price was worth paying - but every pound spent on rail subsidies is a pound that will not be available for the NHS (for example) - Or you could just increase taxation.

Also, if you artificially reduce the cost of rail travel enough, you will cause closures and  redundancies in other transport industries.

As ever the idea that economics works like a science is based on a fallacious assumption of a perfect market that does not and cannot exist

Do you fail to understand through embedded dogma or pure ignorance?

[Nearly Sane]

Do you fail to understand through embedded dogma or pure ignorance?

Explain how economics can have fundamentals if it is based on assumption of something that cannot exist I.e. a perfect market, and try not to deflect with insult.

[Harrowby Hall]

Also, if you artificially reduce the cost of rail travel enough, you will cause closures and  redundancies in other transport industries.

Such as? 

Other subsidised transport systems such as buses? Or aircraft?

Or might people  - usually unable to calculate the real cost of private motoring - leave their personal mobile tin boxes at home?

In each case the major change is a reduction in pollution.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Lapsed,

Can you forget the pound, shilling and pence aspect and look at the bigger picture, this country needs ( needs ) to travel to work, we rely heavily on bus and rail, it is a basic, the country would grind to a standstill without them, the countless millions who have escaped the big city but need to travel to the big cities rely heavily on bus and rail, without them we are fracked, of course we all could travel by car, that would be nice but then there are some who are ineligible for car ownership.

The country needs a safe, affordable and above all reliable means to go about their daily business, do you think that should be left to private investors, private investors who only answer to shareholders, they certainly do not answer to their customers,

http://metro.co.uk/2016/07/20/chaotic-scenes-at-brighton-station-after-it-closes-due-to-southern-rail-delays-6019195/

https://www.theguardian.com/small-business-network/2016/aug/25/businesses-cost-southern-rail-cancelled-meetings

Tip of the iceberg old son, this is happening up and down the country and you certainly can't blame it all on industrial action.

It is time for this government to act, to forget the deficit and concentrate on keeping this country moving.

Renationalise our transport, invest heavily and it will reward us in future times.

Gonnagle.

[L.A.]

Explain how economics can have fundamentals if it is based on assumption of something that cannot exist I.e. a perfect market, and try not to deflect with insult.

I feel as if I am discussing evolution with a Creationist NS. Opinions set in stone are not going to change - and life is too short to even try.

[Nearly Sane]

I feel as if I am discussing evolution with a Creationist NS. Opinions set in stone are not going to change - and life is too short to even try.

So that would he a no to being able to explain, and a no to not using insults for your not explaining.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Lapsed,

I feel as if I am discussing evolution with a Creationist NS. Opinions set in stone are not going to change - and life is too short to even try.

Is that your way of saying, once a Tory always a Tory

I was once a Tory, hell! I helped vote Maggie in, but I am now cured, can you be a Tory and a Christian???

Gonnagle.

[L.A.]

So that would he a no to being able to explain, and a no to not using insults for your not explaining.

If you are genuinely interested in the subject (which I suspect you're not) you will find plenty of good books and online articles. I believe there are also free online courses.

I do not however, intend to waste any more of my time.

[Nearly Sane]

If you are genuinely interested in the subject (which I suspect you're not) you will find plenty of good books and online articles. I believe there are also free online courses.

I do not however, intend to waste any more of my time.

your attempt at being patronising would be more successful, had you been able to deal with the questions asked rather than evade and insult.

[Jack Knave]

I hope neither agreement goes through too. It gives corporations far too much power which is really the last thing we want to do. It also lowers standards in things like food safety. More globalisation is bad. We need to be stepping back.

I agree.

[Jack Knave]

Hi Gonnagle,

I always think that people who lament the passing of our nationalised industries must either have very bad memories or have never experienced them - THEY WERE CRAP.

That may or not be true but what we have now is crap and getting crappier. And they are unaccountable and unelected.

[Jack Knave]

I'm not saying it's a shining example now, but British Rail was utterly crap. Renationalisation is not the answer.

And how was it crap?

[Jack Knave]

I agree that there is plenty of room for improvement, but if you have choice, you have no one to blame but yourself if you are paying over the odds for a product whether it is a tin of beans or your gas/electric supplies.

I agree with Jeremy, British Rail was certainly no shining example and any attempts to re nationalise the railways would be a massive waste of public money - and would result in worse performance and an investment freeze.

There probably is a case for penalising some of these companies for poor performance, but much of the recent rail disruption for example, is a direct result of industrial action.

Choice? ? ? What a load of bollocks!!!

[Aruntraveller]

Choice? ? ? What a load of bollocks!!!

I'm going to lie down now. Jack Knave and I are of one accord.

[Hope]

But then, I do blame government, a Tory government hell bent on little government.

But Gonners, the same problem has also existed under Labour governments 'bent on big government'.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Hope,

First of all it is not big government, it is just government, taking responsibility for how our country is run, not selling off the problem to a private investor and hoping that they will solve the problem.

 I am actually trying to think of a successful sell off, BT probably, but successful for who or is that whom, the Post Office ( can we still call it Royal Mail ) was actually starting to show profit before we sold it, but this government said nah!! not our problem anymore but we have yet to see if and when they decide that sending post/goods to the Utter Hebrides remains profitable, cost cutting is a private investors dream, no thought for the customer.

But your wee post sent me on a nostalgic voyage, we have not had a Labour government since 1979, thirty odd years of Tory or Torylite government, Callaghan was our last real Labour Prime Minister but the Unions did for that man and then along came Maggie

So back to your OP, do we allow small government to continue, do we say yes to TTIP or CETA, do we enable big business to hold our government to ransom, and lest we forget, TTIP and CETA are EU pipe dreams and is Jack Knave blowing raspberries from the side line and shouting "told ye so" is there actually a silver lining to Brexit, I honestly don't know, it is all a very confusing mess, a very confusing Tory mess.

Gonnagle.

[Sebastian Toe]

I'm just waiting to see how this will be the example that shows the EU can break it's own rules and override the veto of one of its members.......
Maybe Jack can guide us through the process?

[Hope]

I'm just waiting to see how this will be the example that shows the EU can break it's own rules and override the veto of one of its members.......
Maybe Jack can guide us through the process?

That was a few years ago when both Ireland and France were ordered to rerun their referendums on the Lisbon Treaty!!

[Gordon]

Looks like the Belgians have found themselves some fudge.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37788882