TTIP and CETA

[Sebastian Toe]

That was a few years ago when both Ireland and France were ordered to rerun their referendums on the Lisbon Treaty!!

Who ordered them?

[jeremyp]

Dear Jeremyp,

Then what is?? Privatisation has not worked,

Has it not? Obviously there are high profile failures like Southern Rail, but as a rule train services are vastly better than when they were nationalised.

services are provided on a profit scale, bus services are axed or rerouted due to profit, I will bet that near you there is a community who are up in arms over a companies decision to close a bus route.

I'm blessed to be living in an area with very good bus services. I accept there are areas where it is practically impossible to turn a profit and in those areas, the government should step in to help. But that does not mean blanket renationalisation is the right thing.

[jeremyp]

I didn't say anything about abandoning the NHS, Jeremy. I said that TTIP will open just about everything to US businesses to buy up. And before you point out that this is just the Tory party at work, I'd point out that this is being negotiating by a largely Socialist EU bureaucracy.

How is a US company going to buy up the NHS and institute a health insurance system like the US unless the government abandons it?

[jeremyp]

Goal posts taken down and moved to a pitch at the other end of the country.

No.

The railways are competing with cars and buses and planes.

You can't claim denationalization of the railways is a good thing because you have the alternative of air, car or bus. That's a rubbish argument.

Nobody is. The cars and buses and planes comment is in response to the claim that the railways are a monopoly.

[jeremyp]

Explain how economics can have fundamentals if it is based on assumption of something that cannot exist I.e. a perfect market, and try not to deflect with insult.

Who says economics is based on a perfect market? Economists recognise that as a model of the spherical cow in a vacuum type.

I'm also not sure why you think it is relevant here.

[Nearly Sane]

Who says economics is based on a perfect market? Economists recognise that as a model of the spherical cow in a vacuum type.

I'm also not sure why you think it is relevant here.

so explain how it is a science? And the assumption of a perfect market is implicit in LA's position that consumers have knowledge of all prices. Care to tell me about how people understand freight pricing?

[jeremyp]

so explain how it is a science?

Why?

And the assumption of a perfect market is implicit in LA's position that consumers have knowledge of all prices.

I must have missed that, where did he make that claim?

Care to tell me about how people understand freight pricing?

Well I don't know about freight pricing. I imagine you look it up on the Internet or ring up the companies.

However, I do know about human travel. Let's say I need to travel from my house in the South East to Newcastle where my company's biggest customer is based. I can easily get price information for car, train and aeroplane which are the three practical competing means of transport to get me there. Then I factor in the time it takes to get there by each means (which has a cost because my time is not free) and it usually turns out that the plane is the cheapest means of getting there, mainly because I live conveniently close to Heathrow.

There you are, the train company (two train companies actually, because I have two alternative routes) are in competition with car and plane and they lose.

[Harrowby Hall]

How is a US company going to buy up the NHS and institute a health insurance system like the US unless the government abandons it?

My understanding (which may be wrong) is that the TTIP model favours private enterprise over public (governmental) ownership and governments will have fewer powers to intervene over private enterprise initiatives.

[Harrowby Hall]

Privatisation has not worked,

Has it not? Obviously there are high profile failures like Southern Rail, but as a rule train services are vastly better than when they were nationalised.

The problem with the "privatisation" of the railways is that it was botched. The model chosen was to fragment the system so that no single company was providing all the service.

The companies which charge the customer for service (and have their names on the trains) were not to own the trains but to lease them from a rolling stock company. A separate company owned and maintained the track so the train operating company paid for access to the track along which it could haul someone else's coaches.

And all the time there is an "independent" regulator overseeing what was happening. No single company had total responsibility for the operation. It was really "franchising" rather than "privatisation". One of the most prestigious of the franchises - the East Coast Main Line - has seen failure after failure of train operator.

The whole thing was held together by a mass of contracts.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jeremyp,

Has it not? Obviously there are high profile failures like Southern Rail, but as a rule train services are vastly better than when they were nationalised.

Well I will just have to take your word for it, but, always a but.

 http://actionforrail.org/the-four-big-myths-of-uk-rail-privatisation/

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/britains-railways-doing-well-despite-privatisation-a6843966.html

https://weownit.org.uk/evidence/why-railways-should-be-public-ownership

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/15/nostalgia-british-rail-trains-better

So I suppose it all depends on who you believe but for me there is something immoral in a private company being heavily subsidised, giving its shareholders huge dividends and at the same time Joe Public is paying over the top prices, Joe public is being charged twice to ride on the trains

I'm blessed to be living in an area with very good bus services. I accept there are areas where it is practically impossible to turn a profit and in those areas, the government should step in to help. But that does not mean blanket renationalisation is the right thing.

Fair enough, but private investors should not be allowed to play with peoples life's, if a small village has enjoyed a reliable bus or train service and suddenly they are told that service is no longer economically viable, should they up sticks and move to where you live, our transport system is a basic requirement, it keeps the country running.

Maybe not a blanket renationalisation, but definitely a rethink on who is most important, shareholders or customers.

Gonnagle.

[Jack Knave]

I'm just waiting to see how this will be the example that shows the EU can break it's own rules and override the veto of one of its members.......
Maybe Jack can guide us through the process?

No need the Walloons have had a gun put to their heads and been made an offer they can't refuse. See I told you the EU will always find a way round to breaking their own rules, it may not be obvious and transparent that they have done that but it's what they do.

[Sebastian Toe]

No need the Walloons have had a gun put to their heads and been made an offer they can't refuse. See I told you the EU will always find a way round to breaking their own rules, it may not be obvious and transparent that they have done that but it's what they do.

What was the offer?

[Hope]

However, I do know about human travel. Let's say I need to travel from my house in the South East to Newcastle where my company's biggest customer is based. I can easily get price information for car, train and aeroplane which are the three practical competing means of transport to get me there. Then I factor in the time it takes to get there by each means (which has a cost because my time is not free) and it usually turns out that the plane is the cheapest means of getting there, mainly because I live conveniently close to Heathrow.

There you are, the train company (two train companies actually, because I have two alternative routes) are in competition with car and plane and they lose.

But try flying from the West of the UK to the East and it becomes nigh on impossible.  Using the same three forms of transport, getting from Cardiff to Ipswich by train takes about 4 and a quarter hours; by car takes anything up to 7 hours depending on the route and the day of the week; flying would take me - literally - for ever as there are no flights joining the two places, and I've never even found any combinations of flights that would - though I suppose that if I spent enough time dredging through expedia and other such sites I might find one that takes me via this and that European city en route.

Often, train is the only realistic option, and it isn't that bad.  Cardiff to Ipswich return, booked in advance, is £78.60 for me.

[jeremyp]

My understanding (which may be wrong) is that the TTIP model favours private enterprise over public (governmental) ownership and governments will have fewer powers to intervene over private enterprise initiatives.

That still doesn't answer the question.

[jeremyp]

Fair enough, but private investors should not be allowed to play with peoples life's,

That would rule out private enterprise doing anything at all.

if a small village has enjoyed a reliable bus or train service and suddenly they are told that service is no longer economically viable, should they up sticks and move to where you live, our transport system is a basic requirement, it keeps the country running.

I think you'll find, in my previous post, I did say that the government should step in in such cases.

Maybe not a blanket renationalisation,

Yes. What I object to is the idea that because the system isn't perfect, we need to completely replace it with another system that also isn't perfect. Renationalising the whole railway system just because some bits of it are failing is absurd - as was privatising the whole rail system just because many bits of it were failing, but we can't undo that now.

but definitely a rethink on who is most important, shareholders or customers.

Most of us are both shareholders and customers.

[jeremyp]

But try flying from the West of the UK to the East and it becomes nigh on impossible.

You mean it becomes uncompetitive with rail and road transport.

Using the same three forms of transport, getting from Cardiff to Ipswich by train takes about 4 and a quarter hours; by car takes anything up to 7 hours depending on the route and the day of the week;

It's a four hour drive from Cardiff to Ipswich, whereas any train today (Saturday) would take at least six hours.

flying would take me - literally - for ever as there are no flights joining the two places, and I've never even found any combinations of flights that would - though I suppose that if I spent enough time dredging through expedia and other such sites I might find one that takes me via this and that European city en route.

You could fly to London City Airport inn hour and 15 minutes and for less than £50. That gives you two hours to get  from there to Liverpool Street and thence to Ipswich to beat the car time. Of course, there are only two flights per day, so you'd have to time it.

Often, train is the only realistic option, and it isn't that bad.  Cardiff to Ipswich return, booked in advance, is £78.60 for me.

By realistic, you mean competitive and that is the way it should be.

[Hope]

You mean it becomes uncompetitive with rail and road transport.
It's a four hour drive from Cardiff to Ipswich, whereas any train today (Saturday) would take at least six hours.

You could fly to London City Airport inn hour and 15 minutes and for less than £50. That gives you two hours to get  from there to Liverpool Street and thence to Ipswich to beat the car time. Of course, there are only two flights per day, so you'd have to time it.
By realistic, you mean competitive and that is the way it should be.

No, I don't mean competitive, jp.  I mean practical.  There are a variety of flights from Cardiff to London which would allow me to get to Liverpool Street in order to get a train to Ipswich (there being no flights to Ipswich from any of London's airports).  There are also flights from London airports to Cardiff that I could catch a train from Ipswich for - but the timings between the out and return trips would not allow me to attend much of the board meeting I'm going to Ipswich for.

[ProfessorDavey]

You mean it becomes uncompetitive with rail and road transport.
It's a four hour drive from Cardiff to Ipswich, whereas any train today (Saturday) would take at least six hours.

You'd be hard pressed to drive from Cardiff to Ipswich in 4 hours on most days and at most times of day. And I should know as I live pretty well smack on that route (in St Albans) and regularly drive to Cardiff and do the Ipswich trip a couple of times a year. So yesterday afternoon my wife drove back to St Albans from Cardiff and just that bit took over 4 hours - sure traffic was pretty bad but nothing massively out of the ordinary.

You could fly to London City Airport inn hour and 15 minutes and for less than £50. That gives you two hours to get  from there to Liverpool Street and thence to Ipswich to beat the car time. Of course, there are only two flights per day, so you'd have to time it.
By realistic, you mean competitive and that is the way it should be.

Completely unrealistic - first you have to factor in the time and cost of getting to the airport in Cardiff. Secondly the amount of time before the flight you need to be there (realistically at least 1 hour to be sure of getting through security etc). Given that the train (which goes from central Cardiff) takes just 2 hours to Paddington) the flight will take longer from front door to London, unless you happen to live right next to Cardiff airport.

But more significant is the problems if your flight is delayed or cancelled, which leaves you without a viable alternative option.

I can't image anyone with any real sense would conclude that flying to London and then getting a train to Ipswich was a viable option.

[Hope]

It's a four hour drive from Cardiff to Ipswich, whereas any train today (Saturday) would take at least six hours.

The shortest time I've managed to travel between the two centres by car is 6 hours, jp, whilst I have regularly done the same trip by train in 4 1/4 hours - and on a Saturday at that. (Cardiff - London 05:55 - 08:10; London - Ipswich 09.00 - 10:07).  I notice that under the new timetables, the 05:55 from Cardiff is no longer - but that doesn't matter any longer as I now travel over on the Friday before board meetings and back on the Saturday.

You could fly to London City Airport inn hour and 15 minutes and for less than £50. That gives you two hours to get  from there to Liverpool Street and thence to Ipswich to beat the car time. Of course, there are only two flights per day, so you'd have to time it.
By realistic, you mean competitive and that is the way it should be.

It costs me £75 for a return to Ipswich from my home near Cardiff.  So, not only are journeys including flights impractical, they are more expensive.

[ekim]

My understanding (which may be wrong) is that the TTIP model favours private enterprise over public (governmental) ownership and governments will have fewer powers to intervene over private enterprise initiatives.

An exert from this site indicates the concern you mention : http://www.atlantic-community.org/-/ttip-top-5-concerns-and-criticism

"Arguably the most concerning aspect of TTIP for many critics is the so-called Investor-State Dispute Settlement (ISDS) mechanism which is likely to be built into the agreement. This mechanism gives companies the capacity to take legal action against states which they perceive are hindering potential profits. "

[Jack Knave]

What was the offer?

Not to pull the trigger!

[Sebastian Toe]

Not to pull the trigger!

No, really, what was the offer?

[jeremyp]

No, I don't mean competitive, jp.

That's only because you refuse to understand the point.

I mean practical.  There are a variety of flights from Cardiff to London which would allow me to get to Liverpool Street in order to get a train to Ipswich (there being no flights to Ipswich from any of London's airports).  There are also flights from London airports to Cardiff that I could catch a train from Ipswich for - but the timings between the out and return trips would not allow me to attend much of the board meeting I'm going to Ipswich for.

And there's also travelling by car or coach. So there is competition for the train, but for you, the train is the most cost effective.

[jeremyp]

You'd be hard pressed to drive from Cardiff to Ipswich in 4 hours on most days

No you wouldn't. It was actually closer to three and a half hours according to my Sat Nav and I rounded it up to four. I'll give you five if it makes you happier. Of course, that takes you from anywhere in the vicinity of Cardiff to anywhere in the vicinity of Ipswich whereas the train time I looked up (best time on a Saturday is over 6 hours) doesn't take into account that you have to get to Cardiff station and you have to get from Ipswich station to your destination.

I can't image anyone with any real sense would conclude that flying to London and then getting a train to Ipswich was a viable option.

Well it is as it turns out (much to my surprise when I looked it up).

But anyway, all this quibbling about how long it would take to get from A to B by various modes of transport is beside the point. The point is that there are alternatives to the train. The train companies are not operating in a monopoly situation.

[Jack Knave]

No, really, what was the offer?

No, really, that was the offer.