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Author Topic: Return of the 'gay cake'  (Read 8534 times)

Aruntraveller

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Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2016, 11:48:20 AM »
Quote from: Floo on October 25, 2016, 11:42:22 AM
So don't you think the BNP is racist?

can't speak for NS but I imagine he does. But I think you are misunderstanding what NS is getting at here.
As far as I can see it is the issue of the intention of the bakers at play here - that is did they intend to discriminate against the person or the idea.

Tatchell is arguing that it is the idea they did not like, not the person. I find that distinction a little disingenuous but I am enough of a realist to see that it causes issues that are not easily resolvable.
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Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2016, 11:51:11 AM »
Quote from: Nearly Sane on October 25, 2016, 11:47:51 AM
I don't think that what I believe something to be is the test of restricting political freedom. To extend the analogy do you think a Muslim printer should be able to be forced to print cartoons of Mohammed?

But surely being racist is something which should be restricted, especially when those sentiments are put into practise?
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Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2016, 11:53:22 AM »
Quote from: Trentvoyager on October 25, 2016, 11:48:20 AM
can't speak for NS but I imagine he does. But I think you are misunderstanding what NS is getting at here.
As far as I can see it is the issue of the intention of the bakers at play here - that is did they intend to discriminate against the person or the idea.

Tatchell is arguing that it is the idea they did not like, not the person. I find that distinction a little disingenuous but I am enough of a realist to see that it causes issues that are not easily resolvable.

I can't see the distinction myself, like saying, 'hate the sin, but love the sinner', when applied to homosexuality.
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jeremyp

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Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2016, 11:55:03 AM »
Quote from: Floo on October 25, 2016, 11:51:11 AM
But surely being racist is something which should be restricted, especially when those sentiments are put into practise?
I don't understand this line of reasoning. Who was putting a racist sentiment into practice here? I thought this was about a cake with a pro-gay marriage political slogan.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2016, 11:57:28 AM »
Quote from: Floo on October 25, 2016, 11:51:11 AM
But surely being racist is something which should be restricted, especially when those sentiments are put into practise?
It is restricted but that's not relevant to the point here.

I suppose a closer analogy is whether a Muslim could force a Jewish bakery to produce a cake that said 'Israel should cease to exist' as both groups, as in this case are protected groups.
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Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #30 on: October 26, 2016, 11:46:58 AM »
Quote from: Nearly Sane on October 25, 2016, 09:11:51 AM
Ashers lose appeal. I think this is problematic.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-37748681

FWIW I have a have a problem with this judgement as it would seem that the legislation in question is interfering with one of the fundamental conditions of contract, ie there must be consent. The complainants may well have had a case for breach of contract, but the disrcimination aspect seems to me to be OTT. I would not want to make a cake with a "pro choice" message on it (OK I concede that kind of thing is highly unlikely, but it's the unlikely events that make the consdieration of new legosaltion the timely process that it is.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2018, 11:52:15 AM »
The UK Supreme Court has ruled that Ashers was not discriminating when they refused to make a cake with a slogan supporting gay marriage.

I agree with the result on the grounds that a business should have a choice about promoting political slogans.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-45789759
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Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2018, 12:14:48 PM »
Quote from: Gabriella on October 10, 2018, 11:52:15 AM
The UK Supreme Court has ruled that Ashers was not discriminating when they refused to make a cake with a slogan supporting gay marriage.

I agree with the result on the grounds that a business should have a choice about promoting political slogans.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-45789759

Agreed.
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jeremyp

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Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2018, 01:03:23 PM »
Quote from: Gabriella on October 10, 2018, 11:52:15 AM

I agree with the result on the grounds that a business should have a choice about promoting political slogans.


I think it's more fundamental than that. This is a free speech issue. Free speech is not free if you do not have the right not to say something. 
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SteveH

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Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2018, 02:03:41 PM »
Quote from: jeremyp on October 10, 2018, 01:03:23 PM
I think it's more fundamental than that. This is a free speech issue. Free speech is not free if you do not have the right not to say something.
Quite.You are free to say what you like, within limits (you can't say absolutely anything), but no-one is obliged to give you a platform.
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ippy

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Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2018, 03:10:33 PM »
Relentless secularism will manage to level the playing field in the end and it's also obvious that there's always going to be the occasional setback.

ippy
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Enki

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Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2018, 03:21:11 PM »
Quote from: ippy on October 10, 2018, 03:10:33 PM
Relentless secularism will manage to level the playing field in the end and it's also obvious that there's always going to be the occasional setback.

ippy

I don't see it as a setback at all. I agree with the verdict. I think peter Tatchell had it about right when he changed his view in 2016.
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ippy

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Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2018, 01:38:05 PM »
Quote from: enki on October 10, 2018, 03:21:11 PM
I don't see it as a setback at all. I agree with the verdict. I think peter Tatchell had it about right when he changed his view in 2016.

Have a look at this link:

https://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2013/09/nss-members-challenge-judicial-church-service-that-reinforces-links-between-church-and-state

ippy
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Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2018, 02:09:23 PM »
Quote from: ippy on October 11, 2018, 01:38:05 PM
Have a look at this link:

https://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2013/09/nss-members-challenge-judicial-church-service-that-reinforces-links-between-church-and-state

ippy

Ippy what is the relevance?

I worked in the Royal Courts of Justice between 1978, and 1984, and saw this procession many times.  It is just a piece of pageantry, as is the lesser known Ceremony of the Quit Rents. To my mind the most annoying part was the fact that the procession is led by the Tipstaff, usually a career civil servant who sends his subordinates to do the dirty work (ie eject people from the buiding).
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ippy

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Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2018, 04:27:24 PM »
Quote from: Humph Warden Bennett on October 11, 2018, 02:09:23 PM
Ippy what is the relevance?

I worked in the Royal Courts of Justice between 1978, and 1984, and saw this procession many times.  It is just a piece of pageantry, as is the lesser known Ceremony of the Quit Rents. To my mind the most annoying part was the fact that the procession is led by the Tipstaff, usually a career civil servant who sends his subordinates to do the dirty work (ie eject people from the buiding).

If you don't want to see you wont, it's not for me to explain it to you and if I were to take the time?

ippy
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Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2018, 04:36:46 PM »
Ippy that is a total fail upon your part and I do not intend to debate this diversion further.
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ippy

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Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2018, 05:47:37 PM »
Quote from: Humph Warden Bennett on October 11, 2018, 04:36:46 PM
Ippy that is a total fail upon your part and I do not intend to debate this diversion further.

What a surprise!!

ippy
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Robbie

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Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2018, 05:55:32 PM »
Quote from: ippy on October 11, 2018, 01:38:05 PM
Have a look at this link:

https://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2013/09/nss-members-challenge-judicial-church-service-that-reinforces-links-between-church-and-state

ippy

They have same thing in USA (Red Mass and all that).

Fail to see what a bit of tradition has to do with a cake, gay or straight.

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Enki

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Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #43 on: October 11, 2018, 06:06:26 PM »
Quote from: ippy on October 11, 2018, 01:38:05 PM
Have a look at this link:

https://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2013/09/nss-members-challenge-judicial-church-service-that-reinforces-links-between-church-and-state

ippy

Looked at your link. Can't find the slightest relevance to the cake decision whatever. I still think that it was the right decision. :)
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Robbie

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Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #44 on: October 11, 2018, 07:16:04 PM »
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jeremyp

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Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #45 on: October 11, 2018, 08:15:53 PM »
Quote from: Robbie on October 11, 2018, 07:16:04 PM
Particularly gay cakes

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/517702919650491604/?lp=true
Definitely emoji infested. Not sure about gay though unless you meant “gay” in its earlier sense.
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Robbie

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Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #46 on: October 11, 2018, 08:40:33 PM »
Yeah, just trying to lighten up a bit.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #47 on: October 12, 2018, 12:16:59 AM »
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SteveH

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Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #48 on: October 12, 2018, 08:17:57 AM »
 ;D Love it!
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Anchorman

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Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #49 on: October 12, 2018, 09:14:09 AM »
Quote from: Robbie on October 11, 2018, 05:55:32 PM
They have same thing in USA (Red Mass and all that).

Fail to see what a bit of tradition has to do with a cake, gay or straight.



This daft anachronistic hokum is confined to the English court.
Similar - though thankfully unrelated and much lestr faft - rigmarole happens in Scotland.
I don't know whether it happens in NI.
Either way, id ousn't happen in the so-called UK Supreme court; nor should it.
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