Return of the 'gay cake'

[Nearly Sane]

Ashers lose appeal. I think this is problematic.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-37748681

[floo]

Good I am glad they lost, there is nothing wrong with being gay. Religious faith should not be used as an excuse for unpleasant bigotry, imo.

[Nearly Sane]

Good I am glad they lost, there is nothing wrong with being gay. Religious faith should not be used as an excuse for unpleasant bigotry, imo.

It's a political campaign that the company don't support. It reduces the freedom of a company in terms of what they can decide to do. They would have baked a cake for anyone.

[ad_orientem]

So an immigrant baker couldn't refuse to bake a cake that had "Vote BNP" on it.

[Nearly Sane]

So an immigrant baker couldn't refuse to bake a cake that had "Vote BNP" on it.

I think that would need to be tested in court.

[Aruntraveller]

It's a complicated case.

I can see the problem with this from a freedom pov and the issues around Muslim bakers being forced to bake a cake with a pig on it - or whatever example you choose to make up.

But they made their case on their religious viewpoint - but they were quite happy to make Halloween cakes. Thus pointing to the fact that actually it was not on religious grounds but actually was discrimination on the grounds of sexuality.

I'm not convinced either way on this and sit perched uncomfortably on the fence presently.

There is a good article by Peter Tatchell here:

http://www.petertatchellfoundation.org/ashers-gay-cake-verdict-is-defeat-for-freedom-of-expression/

[Nearly Sane]

I don't see the relevance of the Halloween example, it's not a political campaign. They were not refusing to make a cake for someone who was gay. I'm in full agreement with Tatchell on this.

[Owlswing]

So an immigrant baker couldn't refuse to bake a cake that had "Vote BNP" on it.

Yes, of course he/she could. That is a political standpoint and is not discrimination within the meaning of ANY anti-discrimination law operative within the United Kingdom.

Your overt and unpleasant bigotry in blindingly obvious!

[Nearly Sane]

Your overt and unpleasant bigotry in blindingly obvious!

Yes, of course he/she could. That is a political standpoint and is not discrimination within the meaning of ANY anti-discrimination law operative within the United Kingdom.

Your overt and unpleasnt bigotry in blindingly obvious!

But the cake was a political standpoint. Given that ad_o is only using a similar example to Peter Tatchell, are you saying Tatchell's an overt and unpleasant bigot?

[Nearly Sane]

Moderator a post has been removed due to it being a personal insult. Please endeavour to conduct the discussion in line with the forum rules


http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=7765.0

[Aruntraveller]

NS as I have said I am on the fence.

It would have been interesting if the wording had been different to see if Ashers would still have refused:

Darren and David are married - Celebrate.

What would have been their attitude then?

I can see Tatchell's argument. Unfortunately I also have this little voice in my head saying if it's brown and smelly, and it's lying turd-like on the pavement - then you can be pretty sure it is what you think it is.

[Nearly Sane]

NS as I have said I am on the fence.

It would have been interesting if the wording had been different to see if Ashers would still have refused:

Darren and David are married - Celebrate.

What would have been their attitude then?

I can see Tatchell's argument. Unfortunately I also have this little voice in my head saying if it's brown and smelly, and it's lying turd-like on the pavement - then you can be pretty sure it is what you think it is.

And shutting down political freedom does not get rid of bigots, it makes more of them, as it makes bigots of the people shutting down that freedom.

[Aruntraveller]

Except, and this is where I struggle:

 

Ashers had falsely advertised their services, saying they were willing decorate their cakes with any message that a customer wanted. They did not say there were any limits on the designs or wording.

That to me is the sticking point in my mind.

[Anchorman]

Remember that at the time of the incident, gay marriage was illegal in Northern Ireland (and, speaking as Ia Christian, I have no objection to secular gay marriage anywhere), this firm were not doing anything illegal as they saw it. If what they did was a matter of conscience, I think the law is in need of clarification. I'm with Taatchell on this.

[Nearly Sane]

Except, and this is where I struggle:

 
That to me is the sticking point in my mind.

In contractual terms that is still just an offer to treat and not a binding clause. I also suspect it was not considered in the  sense of all messages no matter the content, just in the sense of you tell us your message we can print it because of the technology. I don't see how it can be taken as a restriction on their political freedom.

[Nearly Sane]

Remember that at the time of the incident, gay marriage was illegal in Northern Ireland (and, speaking as Ia Christian, I have no objection to secular gay marriage anywhere), this firm were not doing anything illegal as they saw it. If what they did was a matter of conscience, I think the law is in need of clarification. I'm with Taatchell on this.

And gay marriage is still illegal in NI

[Anchorman]

True, unfortunately, NS. So this firm were supporting the legal position as they saw it....even if that position was wrong in the eyes of many people.

[Nearly Sane]

True, unfortunately, NS. So this firm were supporting the legal position as they saw it....even if that position was wrong in the eyes of many people.

I don't think they can use the argument that they were supporting the legal position with any strength as that would be the equivalent shutting down of political freedom.

[floo]

So an immigrant baker couldn't refuse to bake a cake that had "Vote BNP" on it.

That is very different indeed the BNP are racist scum. Would you support a cake with a racist comment?  Racism and anti-gay bigotry are evil.

[Nearly Sane]

That is very different indeed the BNP are racist scum. Would you support a cake with a racist comment?  Racism and anti-gay bigotry are evil.

The BNP are a legal party. It's a very similar issue. Just wanting to ban things you don't like is incredibly dangerous.

[floo]

The BNP are a legal party. It's a very similar issue. Just wanting to ban things you don't like is incredibly dangerous.

They might be legal, but they are still evil racists!

[Nearly Sane]

They might be legal, but they are still evil racists!

So the test if what people have to produce if asked is whatever Floo thinks is right.

[floo]

So the test if what people have to produce if asked is whatever Floo thinks is right.

So don't you think the BNP is racist?

[jeremyp]

So an immigrant baker couldn't refuse to bake a cake that had "Vote BNP" on it.

The BNP is not a protected group under British law.

However, I do see the point. It's one thing to refuse to serve somebody because of who they are, it's another different thing to refuse to serve any person with a particular thing they want.

[Nearly Sane]

So don't you think the BNP is racist?

I don't think that what I believe something to be is the test of restricting political freedom. To extend the analogy do you think a Muslim printer should be able to be forced to print cartoons of Mohammed?