Author Topic: Return of the 'gay cake'  (Read 8529 times)

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64363
Return of the 'gay cake'
« on: October 25, 2016, 09:11:51 AM »

Ashers lose appeal. I think this is problematic.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-37748681

floo

  • Guest
Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2016, 09:14:35 AM »
Good I am glad they lost, there is nothing wrong with being gay. Religious faith should not be used as an excuse for unpleasant bigotry, imo.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64363
Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2016, 09:24:45 AM »
Good I am glad they lost, there is nothing wrong with being gay. Religious faith should not be used as an excuse for unpleasant bigotry, imo.
It's a political campaign that the company don't support. It reduces the freedom of a company in terms of what they can decide to do. They would have baked a cake for anyone.

ad_orientem

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7929
Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2016, 09:27:41 AM »
So an immigrant baker couldn't refuse to bake a cake that had "Vote BNP" on it.
Peace through superior firepower.
Do not believe anything until the Kremlin denies it.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64363
Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2016, 09:31:01 AM »
So an immigrant baker couldn't refuse to bake a cake that had "Vote BNP" on it.
I think that would need to be tested in court.

Aruntraveller

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11091
Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2016, 09:32:49 AM »
It's a complicated case.

I can see the problem with this from a freedom pov and the issues around Muslim bakers being forced to bake a cake with a pig on it - or whatever example you choose to make up.

But they made their case on their religious viewpoint - but they were quite happy to make Halloween cakes. Thus pointing to the fact that actually it was not on religious grounds but actually was discrimination on the grounds of sexuality.

I'm not convinced either way on this and sit perched uncomfortably on the fence presently.

There is a good article by Peter Tatchell here:

http://www.petertatchellfoundation.org/ashers-gay-cake-verdict-is-defeat-for-freedom-of-expression/
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64363
Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2016, 09:35:54 AM »
I don't see the relevance of the Halloween example, it's not a political campaign. They were not refusing to make a cake for someone who was gay. I'm in full agreement with Tatchell on this.

Owlswing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6945
Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2016, 09:51:29 AM »

So an immigrant baker couldn't refuse to bake a cake that had "Vote BNP" on it.



Yes, of course he/she could. That is a political standpoint and is not discrimination within the meaning of ANY anti-discrimination law operative within the United Kingdom.

Your overt and unpleasant bigotry in blindingly obvious!
« Last Edit: October 25, 2016, 04:43:54 PM by Owlswing »
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64363
Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2016, 09:56:41 AM »
Your overt and unpleasant bigotry in blindingly obvious!

Yes, of course he/she could. That is a political standpoint and is not discrimination within the meaning of ANY anti-discrimination law operative within the United Kingdom.

Your overt and unpleasnt bigotry in blindingly obvious!

But the cake was a political standpoint. Given that ad_o is only using a similar example to Peter Tatchell, are you saying Tatchell's an overt and unpleasant bigot?

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64363
Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2016, 10:02:16 AM »
Moderator a post has been removed due to it being a personal insult. Please endeavour to conduct the discussion in line with the forum rules


http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=7765.0

Aruntraveller

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11091
Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2016, 10:13:15 AM »
NS as I have said I am on the fence.

It would have been interesting if the wording had been different to see if Ashers would still have refused:

Darren and David are married - Celebrate.

What would have been their attitude then?

I can see Tatchell's argument. Unfortunately I also have this little voice in my head saying if it's brown and smelly, and it's lying turd-like on the pavement - then you can be pretty sure it is what you think it is.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64363
Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2016, 10:15:58 AM »
NS as I have said I am on the fence.

It would have been interesting if the wording had been different to see if Ashers would still have refused:

Darren and David are married - Celebrate.

What would have been their attitude then?

I can see Tatchell's argument. Unfortunately I also have this little voice in my head saying if it's brown and smelly, and it's lying turd-like on the pavement - then you can be pretty sure it is what you think it is.

And shutting down political freedom does not get rid of bigots, it makes more of them, as it makes bigots of the people shutting down that freedom.

Aruntraveller

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11091
Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2016, 10:20:02 AM »
Except, and this is where I struggle:

 
Quote
Ashers had falsely advertised their services, saying they were willing decorate their cakes with any message that a customer wanted. They did not say there were any limits on the designs or wording.

That to me is the sticking point in my mind.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Anchorman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16038
  • Maranatha!
Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2016, 10:33:11 AM »
Remember that at the time of the incident, gay marriage was illegal in Northern Ireland (and, speaking as Ia Christian, I have no objection to secular gay marriage anywhere), this firm were not doing anything illegal as they saw it. If what they did was a matter of conscience, I think the law is in need of clarification. I'm with Taatchell on this.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64363
Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2016, 10:35:18 AM »
Except, and this is where I struggle:

 
That to me is the sticking point in my mind.

In contractual terms that is still just an offer to treat and not a binding clause. I also suspect it was not considered in the  sense of all messages no matter the content, just in the sense of you tell us your message we can print it because of the technology. I don't see how it can be taken as a restriction on their political freedom.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64363
Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2016, 10:36:35 AM »
Remember that at the time of the incident, gay marriage was illegal in Northern Ireland (and, speaking as Ia Christian, I have no objection to secular gay marriage anywhere), this firm were not doing anything illegal as they saw it. If what they did was a matter of conscience, I think the law is in need of clarification. I'm with Taatchell on this.
And gay marriage is still illegal in NI

Anchorman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16038
  • Maranatha!
Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2016, 10:40:16 AM »
True, unfortunately, NS. So this firm were supporting the legal position as they saw it....even if that position was wrong in the eyes of many people.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64363
Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2016, 10:46:48 AM »
True, unfortunately, NS. So this firm were supporting the legal position as they saw it....even if that position was wrong in the eyes of many people.
I don't think they can use the argument that they were supporting the legal position with any strength as that would be the equivalent shutting down of political freedom.

floo

  • Guest
Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2016, 11:20:38 AM »
So an immigrant baker couldn't refuse to bake a cake that had "Vote BNP" on it.

That is very different indeed the BNP are racist scum. Would you support a cake with a racist comment?  Racism and anti-gay bigotry are evil.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64363
Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2016, 11:24:33 AM »
That is very different indeed the BNP are racist scum. Would you support a cake with a racist comment?  Racism and anti-gay bigotry are evil.
The BNP are a legal party. It's a very similar issue. Just wanting to ban things you don't like is incredibly dangerous.

floo

  • Guest
Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2016, 11:32:31 AM »
The BNP are a legal party. It's a very similar issue. Just wanting to ban things you don't like is incredibly dangerous.

They might be legal, but they are still evil racists! >:(

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64363
Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2016, 11:35:59 AM »
They might be legal, but they are still evil racists! >:(
So the test if what people have to produce if asked is whatever Floo thinks is right.

floo

  • Guest
Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2016, 11:42:22 AM »
So the test if what people have to produce if asked is whatever Floo thinks is right.

So don't you think the BNP is racist?

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32509
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2016, 11:46:38 AM »
So an immigrant baker couldn't refuse to bake a cake that had "Vote BNP" on it.
The BNP is not a protected group under British law.

However, I do see the point. It's one thing to refuse to serve somebody because of who they are, it's another different thing to refuse to serve any person with a particular thing they want.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2016, 11:50:09 AM by jeremyp »
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64363
Re: Return of the 'gay cake'
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2016, 11:47:51 AM »
So don't you think the BNP is racist?
I don't think that what I believe something to be is the test of restricting political freedom. To extend the analogy do you think a Muslim printer should be able to be forced to print cartoons of Mohammed?