Author Topic: A Raymond Ibrahim Article  (Read 4365 times)

trippymonkey

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A Raymond Ibrahim Article
« on: October 25, 2016, 09:37:35 PM »
ok
« Last Edit: June 10, 2017, 11:13:49 PM by trippymonkey »

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: A Raymond Ibrahim Article
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2016, 10:33:11 AM »
Trippy - you seem to have a bee in your bonnet about this but repeating it over and over again on the Muslim Board doesn't make it anything other than true for you or true for Raymond Ibrahim.

Raymond Ibrahim and you are welcome to hold whatever opinion you want about Prophet Mohamed and his supposed actions based on your individual interpretations of Islam and stories about Islam.

Since there is no objective interpretation of Islam, or any moral or ethical concept for that matter, your interpretation is just one of many - there are as many interpretations as there are individuals. Even Salafi doctrines (which many associate with terrorism) have many variations on the theme of disassociating from non-Muslims - Al Wala' Wal Bara' - that Raymond Ibrahim uses to justify his interpretation.

Some Salafists follow an interpretation of Al Wala' Wal Bara' where they attack people who are not attacking them. Other Salafists do not subscribe to this view. 

Raymond Ibrahim mentions Quran 60:4 which tells Muslims to follow the example of Prophet Abraham being told to disassociate from his community and emigrate, given he had been thrown into a fire by his people for preaching monotheism. Quran chapter 60:8 goes on to say to deal kindly and justly with non-Muslims, so clearly Raymond Ibrahim needs to do a bit more research on Islam if he wants his views on Islam to be taken seriously.

Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Brownie

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Re: A Raymond Ibrahim Article
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2016, 08:56:16 PM »
I didn't read the Ibrahim article as asking anything, Trippy;  it is making statements.

(I'm reasonably familiar with Raymond Ibrahim articles because someone on St Thad's favours and quite often quotes him, amongst others.)
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

Brownie

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Re: A Raymond Ibrahim Article
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2016, 09:41:35 PM »
I read this, Trippy:
"...your reply to this post ignores just about everything asked of it !!!"

Gabriella's conversion is known to me, it isn't a secret.
She knows more about Islam than either of us.
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

Brownie

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Re: A Raymond Ibrahim Article
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2016, 12:18:51 AM »
I'm not having a go at you Trippy, nothing personal.  I did read the article carefully but will re-read it at your suggestion.  I've read quite a lot that he has written in the past too.

Gabriella's conversion is her business but it isn't unusual for people to convert to Islam, nor to Christianity come to that.
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

trippymonkey

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Re: A Raymond Ibrahim Article
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2016, 07:50:15 AM »
Completely right about conversion - it's the business OF that person but when things are so glaring in yer face, it's difficult (OR easy) for some to blatantly ignore them, for their own 'selfish' reasons.

Religion is almost always purely selfish anyway.
So please tell me what you feel about this author if you've read him before?!!?!?

Best
Nick

Brownie

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Re: A Raymond Ibrahim Article
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2016, 08:34:22 AM »
Scholarly, extremely biased.  IIRC, he comes from a Coptic background.
When his name comes up I always know what to expect.  Despite being an Egyptologist, in danger of becoming a one trick pony.


I don't understand the 'selfish' aspect of conversion, does anyone convert to another faith without a lot of soul searching?  One could argue that the searching process is self-centred and introspective, I suppose, but it's not easy.

(Posting on religious forums, a choice, is enough to put someone off any religion; being alone in a tranquil setting which no-one else can enter without being invited is very attractive and I daresay that is selfish!  Ta ta for now, I'm going back to bed to read some poetry and hopefully have a bit more sleep, 'phone off and no-one will knock.  Sheer bliss.)
« Last Edit: October 27, 2016, 08:44:57 AM by Brownie »
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: A Raymond Ibrahim Article
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2016, 08:45:43 AM »
Brownie
Yes it IS making statements because the writer is really up on his stuff. If anything is wrong then I want to know from others on here.

I think you misread my reply to Gabriella as being related to the actual article, sorry.
Gabriella is a Hindu to Muslim 'con'vert & will do anything to prevent any criticism of Islam & keeps saying such useless stuff as, not relevant or misquoted etc with no proof & then accuses me of misrepresentation.
Read what she wrote below my first comment & see.

Nick
Actually Nick, what I do on here is say that Islam can't be defined for all practising Muslims by one individual, so I dispute any statement that tries to state what Islam is for everybody else. But I have criticised the beliefs, values and behaviours of lots of Muslims many times in various threads on here.

I told you one mistake in the writer's article, which shows quite clearly the writer is not "up on his stuff" but you are welcome to believe he is if it helps you justify to yourself your opinion about Islam or Prophet Mohamed.

I pointed out that the writer was not up on his stuff when the writer referred to Quran 60:4 as telling Muslims to follow the example of Prophet Abraham. In the story Abraham emigrated rather than start a war when he was physically attacked and thrown in a fire. Nor did he come back to start a war once he had established a new community elsewhere. So it is not an example of Muslims being taught to hate all non-Muslims just because Abraham is an example of disassociating himself from people who attacked him when he advised those people to abandon their idol worship. This contradicts the writer's message that 'true' Muslims are required to go to war against non-Muslims, especially since 4 verses later Quran 60:8 tells Muslims they are not forbidden to treat people justly and kindly if they are not fighting Muslims because of their religion or driving Muslims out of their homes.   

I am not going to bother to go through each point he raises in the article and state that the writer's opinions are lazy generalisations and that his definition of Islam is just one individual opinion amongst many. You present so many of these articles about Prophet Mohamed being a warlord because he led men in battle during the 7th century.

As a leader of a community and a statesman, having to go to war to defend your community from other cities or bordering empires was not unusual for many centuries before the UN came along. And given the conflict that has happened since the UN was formed, why would you think war was unusual in 7th century. I joined the British Territorial Army when I was at university so I don't have a problem with the concept of war.

Forming treaties and alliances was also not unusual in history, which Prophet Mohamed is also reported to have done. So I don't agree with the writer that 'true' Muslims are required to be at war with non-Muslims. I can't be bothered to keep repeating myself every time you post one of these articles.

If the writer was up on his stuff he would realise that individuals interpret religious or moral texts and stories in a subjective way and apply it to their own unique circumstances to find their own individual solutions to problems, and therefore the writer cannot define Islam for other people or generalise about Islam, given the diversity of opinion amongst the people who practise it, the majority of whom are peaceful and law-abiding.

Of course the writer is free to dismiss Muslims who do not interpret Islam the way he interprets Islam, as not being true Muslims, but the fact is that's just his opinion. I am not entirely sure why you think anybody else would be influenced by the writer's opinion on a 'true Muslim' - some people might agree with him and some people won't.

Actually I am an atheist to Muslim convert. I stopped following Hinduism when I was about 13 and was an atheist for about 9 years.


« Last Edit: October 27, 2016, 09:17:06 AM by Gabriella »
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: A Raymond Ibrahim Article
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2016, 09:07:38 AM »
G
Actually I really appreciated this wonderful answer ?!?!?
Now get off the floor & take a good big drink ?!?!? LOL
Thanks
N x
I added to the answer, so feel free to appreciate it even more.

No idea what get off the floor means. And a drink of what? What does this drink do for you, that you think I need?
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Nearly Sane

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Re: A Raymond Ibrahim Article
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2016, 03:46:02 PM »
It means you fainted after getting complimented by me, that's all !! The drink thing has nothing at all to do with a drug or whatever - just pani is OK.

May I ask where you reside as maybe UK english is not your usual language ?

Nick

Given Gabriella is one of the clearest posters on here, I suggest you might reconsider that post.

Nearly Sane

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Re: A Raymond Ibrahim Article
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2016, 03:50:48 PM »
Did you actually read G's reply to mine?

No - I thought not.
Yes, you thought wrong.

Nearly Sane

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Re: A Raymond Ibrahim Article
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2016, 03:56:26 PM »
Good then you know what I'm on about & then rephrase you comment?
No to both parts of that sentence.

Brownie

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Re: A Raymond Ibrahim Article
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2016, 07:48:32 PM »
You were just plain rude, Trippy.  Doesn't help your 'cause' one bit.
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: A Raymond Ibrahim Article
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2016, 09:27:52 AM »
Thanks for the clarification, and the support.

Telling someone to get up off the floor is rude - but no surprise given that Trippy thinks having a spiritual outlook he disagrees with is selfish of me.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi