Immigration

[SusanDoris]

I listened to the 'Moral Maze' yesterday evening. Michael Portillo asked a question several times which the guests and others on other programmes continuously  avoid and that is why the migrants in Calais did not seek to be registered, or to stay in, the first safe country they reached. The emotionally overloaded contributions on many programmes recently I find very annoying. However, I really don't know what the answer is.

[floo]

As I have said before our nation is founded on migrants and no worse for that, imo.

[Walter]

Hope your post #23 is not my quote
I was quoting someone else

[Walter]

Are you aware that not all opinions have equal value. 

[JP]

As I have said before our nation is founded on migrants and no worse for that, imo.

Can I ask on your thinking behind this?

[torridon]

Can I ask on your thinking behind this?

We all emigrants from Africa, ultimately.

[JP]

We all emigrants from Africa, ultimately.

Indeed we are, in which case, other than from the place in which our ancestors first walked out of, indigenous cannot exist.

[torridon]

Indeed we are, in which case, other than from the place in which our ancestors first walked out of, indigenous cannot exist.

All such terms are relative of course. 

Humans have colonised all parts of the globe apart from the Antarctic and we have developed distinctively in geographic isolation for tens of thousands of years.  Now through globalisation we are all coming back together again and peoples in richer fertile lands put up barriers to reintegration to prevent people from poorer lands getting a slice of the their pie.

[Udayana]

I listened to the 'Moral Maze' yesterday evening. Michael Portillo asked a question several times which the guests and others on other programmes continuously  avoid and that is why the migrants in Calais did not seek to be registered, or to stay in, the first safe country they reached. The emotionally overloaded contributions on many programmes recently I find very annoying. However, I really don't know what the answer is.

I don't think anyone knows the answer to that question. Those migrants do not appear to be behaving rationally.

Since they are unwanted by and face discrimination in the countries they have passed through it is possible that they (probably incorrectly) think they will fare better in the UK. I suspect that even if they have some hankering for the UK, they would certainly be better off in the long run by making a life in a country where they already have some, de facto, rights.

But where does this leave the UK - contributing to chaos across the world but leaving others to cope with the consequences, protected by our position on the edge of the continent?

ETA: Should also recognise that the Calais migrants are a tiny fraction of people "on the move" worldwide.

[Sriram]

All such terms are relative of course. 

Humans have colonised all parts of the globe apart from the Antarctic and we have developed distinctively in geographic isolation for tens of thousands of years.  Now through globalisation we are all coming back together again and peoples in richer fertile lands put up barriers to reintegration to prevent people from poorer lands getting a slice of the their pie.

That's not valid at all.  Most nations developed in poverty and misery. They became rich much later. 

'We all are migrants'... is not a meaningful argument at all. There are such things as nations, citizenship, geographical boundaries, governments etc. and they have a purpose and function.

The concept of global citizenship is a myth. We have seen how well the EU is faring, haven't we?!

[Brownie]

Not bad actually, Sririam, why else do so many of us wish we could stay as part of it?

You said:  Most nations developed in poverty and misery.  They became rich much later.

True, which led to what Torridon said:
 
peoples in richer fertile lands put up barriers to reintegration to prevent people from poorer lands getting a slice of the their pie.

Forgetting their own less affluent beginnings!  Unjust, imo. 

[Udayana]

That's not valid at all.  Most nations developed in poverty and misery. They became rich much later. 

'We all are migrants'... is not a meaningful argument at all. There are such things as nations, citizenship, geographical boundaries, governments etc. and they have a purpose and function.

The concept of global citizenship is a myth. We have seen how well the EU is faring, haven't we?!

" nations, citizenship, geographical boundaries, governments" of-course are all fictions. People can use those ideas when convenient and ignore them when not.
 

[Sriram]

Not bad actually, Sririam, why else do so many of us wish we could stay as part of it?

You said:  Most nations developed in poverty and misery.  They became rich much later.

True, which led to what Torridon said:
 
peoples in richer fertile lands put up barriers to reintegration to prevent people from poorer lands getting a slice of the their pie.

Forgetting their own less affluent beginnings!  Unjust, imo.

Ok...so what do you suggest?  How many more millions from Africa/India/China/Indonesia/Brazil/ would Britain/France be able to accommodate? 

Is migration the solution to the problem of poverty? That is my question in the OP. 

The solution is to help the poorer nations in their own countries. Not bring them all to UK/France/US. That will only end up making everyone equally poor. 

Good mushy intentions are not good enough. There should be  sound, long term solutions.

[Sriram]

" nations, citizenship, geographical boundaries, governments" of-course are all fictions. People can use those ideas when convenient and ignore them when not.

Fiction?  Really?!!!

[Udayana]

What would a world with no poverty look like?

[Walter]

I'm not against the movement of people from one place to another across the globe.
What I am against is groups of people with ridiculous belief systems and world views moving to places that don't share those views and trying to impose them on others .  That only leads to conflict.

[wigginhall]

I'm not against the movement of people from one place to another across the globe.
What I am against is groups of people with ridiculous belief systems and world views moving to places that don't share those views and trying to impose them on others .  That only leads to conflict.

There, I told you that Christians were going about things the wrong way.   When will they ever learn?

[Udayana]

I'm not against the movement of people from one place to another across the globe.
What I am against is groups of people with ridiculous belief systems and world views moving to places that don't share those views and trying to impose them on others .  That only leads to conflict.

You are against, more or less, the whole of human history?

[floo]

I'm not against the movement of people from one place to another across the globe.
What I am against is groups of people with ridiculous belief systems and world views moving to places that don't share those views and trying to impose them on others .  That only leads to conflict.

The extremists of all faiths, like Christianity and Islam, can cause problems if they try to force their faith on others!

[Walter]

You are against, more or less, the whole of human history?

History is just a record of the past. What I am against is what I said in my post.

[Walter]

Floo, too right.

[Brownie]

I'm not against the movement of people from one place to another across the globe.
What I am against is groups of people with ridiculous belief systems and world views moving to places that don't share those views and trying to impose them on others .  That only leads to conflict.

You have a point Walter.  People from all over the globe, with diverse cultures and religions, have settled here for a very long time, without even thinking of imposing their beliefs on anyone else (unlike others, eg the 'British', who frequently did - but that's another story).  They've been content to live their lives, peacefully co-existing and assimilating.  Would that it would stay that way.

Sririam, there must be guidelines about how many immigrants can be accommodated, every country has a saturation point.  I don't think anyone would argue with that.  However we have to find room for those in fear of being persecuted and killed.  The plight of the Muslim Kurds in Syria and the Yazidis in Iraq, for example, is appalling.

[Walter]

If I were head of immigration I would ask two questions

Can you work?
Do you have religion?

what do you think the correct answers are?

[wigginhall]

1. Sometimes.

2.  Sometimes.

[Sriram]

What would a world with no poverty look like?

Now...that is fiction!