Slavery. Religious or secular phenomena.

[Hope]

Find someone who is a slave and we can free them immediately.

It is happening on a daily basis already, BR.  Just look at the websites of the organisations I've laready provided a link to.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No I'm not - I made a point earlier on of not commenting on anything BR actually said, I just noted I'd leave it to BR to clarify your take on his comment.

But it seems to me you have taken it on yourself to clarify my take on his comment. Do you defend him by suggesting when he says there is no slavery in the UK he doesn't actually mean that?

[BeRational]

It is happening on a daily basis already, BR.  Just look at the websites of the organisations I've laready provided a link to.

Slavery is illegal.

Find a slave and they will not be a slave it's that simple!

Your God though condones slavery and sees nothing wrong with it.

We on the other hand made it illegal.

Who do you agree with, God or secular morality on the issue of slavery?

[Maeght]

Again you seem to be in denial of the correlation between an increasingly secular society and a society which has slaves. Have I mentioned a direct link? That has got to be proved.

I haven't denied that either of those statements are true, but correlation does not imply causation.

Is it valid? Yes since both axes refer to the same population.

You can plat them but cannot conclude causation.

Is there causation? If slavery is to do with the morals and moral imperatives of a society and the society is secularist?

You would have to demonstrate that a secular society has different morals regarding slavery than a non-secular society in the same environment (geographical location, globalisation, movement of people, terrorism, war, famine etc). You haven't done this but have implied a causal link.

To go back to my OP Christianity emerges in a slave economy.
Modern slavery emerges in a secular society.

I merely point out that it goes against any statement that secularisation decreases slavery

Has anyone claimed that? I haven't.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Slavery is illegal.

Find a slave and they will not be a slave it's that simple!

Your God though condones slavery and sees nothing wrong with it.

We on the other hand made it illegal.

Who do you agree with, God or secular morality on the issue of slavery?

But the question is why is it increasing in an increasingly secular society? Why are people getting into it?

Christianity emerges in a slave economy. It is not the cause of it. The NT suggests that changes in attitudes towards this were discussed and carried out in the Early Christian community the lot of Christian slaves and slaves of Christians would have improved immensely. The witness of Christian slaves would no doubt have led to conversions among masters....Not that there weren't non Christians in Rome, nor that slaves had legal rights, nor that there was manumission.

Then comes the enlightenment and the will towards commerce, technology and things organised on industrial scale including the slave trade.

Even under your wildest ravings that the abolition of slavery was an atheist project from start to finish......how do you account for the fact that in an increasingly secular society slavery is making a comeback?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Slavery is illegal.

Find a slave and they will not be a slave it's that simple!

Your God though condones slavery and sees nothing wrong with it.

We on the other hand made it illegal.

Who do you agree with, God or secular morality on the issue of slavery?

But in an increasing secular society slavery has increased Be Rational.

You are mistaking national legislation for secular morality here.

[SwordOfTheSpirit]

Your God though condones slavery and sees nothing wrong with it.

Who then was concerned about the Israelites in Exodus 3?

7 The Lord said, “I have indeed seen the misery of my people in Egypt. I have heard them crying out because of their slave drivers, and I am concerned about their suffering. 8 So I have come down to rescue them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land into a good and spacious land, a land flowing with milk and honey—the home of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 9 And now the cry of the Israelites has reached me, and I have seen the way the Egyptians are oppressing them. 10 So now, go. I am sending you to Pharaoh to bring my people the Israelites out of Egypt.”

[Anchorman]

SotS: Your text is a very good argument for a retrospective editing of the Pentateuch at around the time of the Exile. The slavery described in it does not correspond with the practice in Egypt before the tenth century BC; and if we a;llow that 'Ramses' was Pi-ramesse, there is no evidence of a change in the content of mud brick construction in any of the dwellings excavated (The stone buildings having been relocated to Tjanet (Tanis) in dyn XXI Your example may be more theological than historical.

[Hope]

Slavery is illegal.

Hasn't always been, even in the enlightened West.

Find a slave and they will not be a slave it's that simple!

There were plenty of slaves in the Caribbean, the Southern States, and parts of the UK, and everyone knew where they were.  That 'finding' didn't change their status.

Your God though condones slavery and sees nothing wrong with it.

Evidence of the blanket validity of this assertion is awaited, BR.

We on the other hand made it illegal.

'We' being who, BR? 'Bible-believing' activists?

Who do you agree with, God or secular morality on the issue of slavery?

From what I understand of the question, secular morality speaks out again it, but turns a blind eye to its existence; so I'd opt for God's stance, who acknowledges that it exists and seeks to both mitigate the problems it involves and works to get rid of it.

[bluehillside Retd.]

So we're gong to have to add "correlation" to the ever-growing list of words that Vlad either doesn't understand or has just re-defined to suit his purpose then:

"Correlation is any of a broad class of statistical relationships involving dependence, though in common usage it most often refers to the extent to which two variables have a linear relationship with each other. Familiar examples of dependent phenomena include the correlation between the physical statures of parents and their offspring, and the correlation between the demand for a product and its price."

(Wiki)

Secularism in the UK hasn't increased recently in any meaningful sense, and there's no linear relationship between it and slavery in any case. At most there's co-existence, but there's no more "secular slavery" than there is secular juggling or secular town planning.

Probably best too not to point out that the countries in which slavery is most common also tend to be the most theistic, not the most secular. 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So we're gong to have to add "correlation" to the ever-growing list of words that Vlad either doesn't understand or has just re-defined to suit his purpose then:

"Correlation is any of a broad class of statistical relationships involving dependence, though in common usage it most often refers to the extent to which two variables have a linear relationship with each other. Familiar examples of dependent phenomena include the correlation between the physical statures of parents and their offspring, and the correlation between the demand for a product and its price."

(Wiki)

Secularism in the UK hasn't increased recently in any meaningful sense, and there's no linear relationship between it and slavery in any case. At most there's co-existence, but there's no more "secular slavery" than there is secular juggling or secular town planning.

Probably best too not to point out that the countries in which slavery is most common also tend to be the most theistic, not the most secular.

Yes but Hillside as people are reporting less christianity(people becoming more secularist) the amount of slavery is also rising. How does that point to zero correlation?

Also if there is no such thing as secular slavery (slaving by secularists) can there be a secular anything? can there be secular abolitionists as you assert. Following your logic a secular society seemingly can take credit for the good things happening in it but never responsibility for bad things.

You forget that Be Rational is making the assertion that Secularism not only reduces slavery but eliminates it. The only way he can go is that it is theists who are behind it all.

[Gordon]

But it seems to me you have taken it on yourself to clarify my take on his comment.

No I haven't: I made no comment on BR's take and pointed this out to you later in the thread.

Do you defend him by suggesting when he says there is no slavery in the UK he doesn't actually mean that?

I'm leaving BR to speak for himself, which I see he has been doing in my absence.

[SwordOfTheSpirit]

SotS: Your text is a very good argument for a retrospective editing of the Pentateuch at around the time of the Exile. The slavery described in it does not correspond with the practice in Egypt before the tenth century BC; and if we a;llow that 'Ramses' was Pi-ramesse, there is no evidence of a change in the content of mud brick construction in any of the dwellings excavated (The stone buildings having been relocated to Tjanet (Tanis) in dyn XXI Your example may be more theological than historical.

I'm not sure what you mean by more theological than historical?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No I haven't: I made no comment on BR's take and pointed this out to you later in the thread.

I'm leaving BR to speak for himself, which I see he has been doing in my absence.

I think he has accepted that there is slavery in the UK after all.

[floo]

Find someone who is a slave and we can free them immediately.

I have already given you the link, don't you believe this is slavery?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/29/13000-slaves-uk-four-times-higher-previously-thought

[bluehillside Retd.]

Yes but Hillside as people are reporting less christianity(people becoming more secularist) the amount of slavery is also rising. How does that point to zero correlation?

Also if there is no such thing as secular slavery (slaving by secularists) can there be a secular anything? can there be secular abolitionists as you assert. Following your logic a secular society seemingly can take credit for the good things happening in it but never responsibility for bad things.

You forget that Be Rational is making the assertion that Secularism not only reduces slavery but eliminates it. The only way he can go is that it is theists who are behind it all.

In which Vlad fails again to grasp that enforcement of legislation is a function of the apparatus of the state, and that the further decline in the already small number of practising Christians has no relationship whatever to that regardless of how much he hopes the slur of putting "secular" and "slavery" in the same sentence will stick.

The decline in practising Christians has also coincided with the decrease in murder rates. Should we ban evangelising therefore because more practising Christians would cause more murders?     

[BeRational]

I have already given you the link, don't you believe this is slavery?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/29/13000-slaves-uk-four-times-higher-previously-thought

Then simply report it and it will stop.

The point I am making is simple.

Slavery is illegal and condemned by our society.

The Christian God on the other hand CONDONES slavery and APPROVES of it.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Then simply report it and it will stop.

The point I am making is simple.

Slavery is illegal and condemned by our society.

The Christian God on the other hand CONDONES slavery and APPROVES of it.

Evidence?

[Hope]

The Christian God on the other hand CONDONES slavery and APPROVES of it.

Can you provide ANY evidence that he either condones or approves of it?  Remember that Christianity was 'birthed' into a society where slavery was the only way that the society survived - no Roman citizen (at least in Rome) had to work.  All the work was done by armies of slaves, who had either been captured during military campaigns or - as in some cases - were citizens who had been made slaves as a form of punishment - eg galley slaves.

Even the Old Testament acknowledges that it existed but generally required such people to be released after 7 years - unless they chose to remain as bonded-labourers.  The Old Testament still required owners of bonded labourers to treat them with regard and kindness.

[Enki]

Writing in the most general terms, It seems to me that slavery is an ingrained human characteristic. This characteristic has been modified somewhat over the centuries by greater emphases on more humane values. E.g. the Declaration of Rights of Man, the influence of Wilberforce on making the slave trade illegal, to the 1948 UN Declaration of Human Rights, and right through to the 1976 law in India banning bonded labour and the UN sustainable development goals of 2015. These more humane values have come from people and organizations which are both religious and secular, and these continue right up to the present day.

However, on a personal level, the teachings of Jesus as exhibited in the NT, seem to suggest, at the very least, an ambiguity as to whether slavery was immoral or not. This might well be understandable when taking into account the historical context of his sayings,  but if I am asked to judge his sayings as being the inspired word of God, then, because I think slavery is wrong, I have no alternative but to consider my personal morals on this particular point as being better than those that Jesus is reported to have conveyed/hinted at/ignored in the gospels. On this point, therefore, I am in general(but not total) agreement with Be Rational, who said:

I do not think slavery is moral, but your god does.

from Mess 63 'Who Created the Deity'.

 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

In which Vlad fails again to grasp that enforcement of legislation is a function of the apparatus of the state, and that the further decline in the already small number of practising Christians has no relationship whatever to that regardless of how much he hopes the slur of putting "secular" and "slavery" in the same sentence will stick.

The decline in practising Christians has also coincided with the decrease in murder rates. Should we ban evangelising therefore because more practising Christians would cause more murders?   

The schtick is all Be rational's since he linked Christianity with slavery in the attempt to slur Christianity....I notice you never try to pick people up on that slur and secularism with it's reduction.
With regard to murders in secular Britain the decline is from 2001 when there was a high of over 1000.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Writing in the most general terms, It seems to me that slavery is an ingrained human characteristic. This characteristic has been modified somewhat over the centuries by greater emphases on more humane values. E.g. the Declaration of Rights of Man, the influence of Wilberforce on making the slave trade illegal, to the 1948 UN Declaration of Human Rights, and right through to the 1976 law in India banning bonded labour and the UN sustainable development goals of 2015. These more humane values have come from people and organizations which are both religious and secular, and these continue right up to the present day.

However, on a personal level, the teachings of Jesus as exhibited in the NT, seem to suggest, at the very least, an ambiguity as to whether slavery was immoral or not. This might well be understandable when taking into account the historical context of his sayings,  but if I am asked to judge his sayings as being the inspired word of God, then, because I think slavery is wrong, I have no alternative but to consider my personal morals on this particular point as being better than those that Jesus is reported to have conveyed/hinted at/ignored in the gospels. On this point, therefore, I am in general(but not total) agreement with Be Rational, who said: from Mess 63 'Who Created the Deity'.

Since I consider God to be absolute morality and secular people in general do not hold with moral realism in any case I have to confess to some amusement over a claim to be more moral than Jesus.

That aside you are but one view point in a line of those claiming Jesus moral shortcomings of which, historically the zealots would be the first.


Christ was not a zealot for the reason that his kingdom was not of this earth and his mission one of personal salvation for people. Practically speaking as well Jesus knew that the mission for personal salvation would not proceed through the immediate re establishment of the Jewish state. Paul knew that the mission of demonstrating the new life would be jeopardised if Christianity turned into a slave rebellion. People have found the mission of Jesus to be transformative and secular legislation often to be merely administrative bluster if the will for enforcement is not there.

Instead of saying ''boy isn't the sentiment of people like meself wonderful and better than Jesus'' perhaps we ought to be wondering how modern slavery could have happened in a secular society that is better than the one Jesus lived in.

[Hope]

However, on a personal level, the teachings of Jesus as exhibited in the NT, seem to suggest, at the very least, an ambiguity as to whether slavery was immoral or not. This might well be understandable when taking into account the historical context of his sayings,  but if I am asked to judge his sayings as being the inspired word of God, then, because I think slavery is wrong, I have no alternative but to consider my personal morals on this particular point as being better than those that Jesus is reported to have conveyed/hinted at/ignored in the gospels. On this point, therefore, I am in general(but not total) agreement with Be Rational, who said: from Mess 63 'Who Created the Deity'.

And what do you base your assumption regarding Jesus' attitude to slavery on, enki?  Apart from his apparent total silence on the matter - a state of affairs that applies to a number of other issues as well - what makes you feel that his moral stance is any less than yours?

[bluehillside Retd.]

But in an increasing secular society slavery has increased Be Rational.

In which Vlad:

1. Wrongly describes "decreasingly practising Christian" with "increasingly secular" as if in some way the Christians who stopped going to church then called their MPs to lobby for the non-enforcement of the criminal law;

2. Still fails to grasp that, even if we were "increasingly secular", that no more correlates to increased slavery than "decreasingly Christian" correlates to the reduction in murders.

You are mistaking national legislation for secular morality here.

In which Vlad invents a new concept of "secular morality" even though there is no such thing. Secularists can draw their morality from any number of sources, but the fact of their secularism isn't one of them. 

[bluehillside Retd.]

Instead of saying ''boy isn't the sentiment of people like meself wonderful and better than Jesus'' perhaps we ought to be wondering how modern slavery could have happened in a secular society that is better than the one Jesus lived in.

In which Vlad spectacularly shoots himself in the foot by failing to notice that even by his own measurement of "incidence of slavery" our secular society is much better than "the one Jesus lived in" - not least because that society condoned it whereas ours criminalises it.