The Divinity of Scripture

[ad_orientem]

They are just all liars then?

No but as the Apostle says, the have been made blind aand they have veil over their hearts, that is until they acknowledge Christ.

[Nearly Sane]

No but as the Apostle says, the have been made blind aand they have veil over their hearts, that is until they acknowledge Christ.

So they have no free will in this matter according to that.

[Khatru]

Oh, he is. Yet being stiffnecked they denied it.

Jesus was rejected for various reasons including his failure to satisfy the Jewish prophecies regarding the Messiah.

The Jewish religion is theirs and the prophecies are theirs - it's not yours.

You're no more entitled to tell the Jews they're wrong than a Mormon who gainsays your beliefs is.

[Khatru]

No but as the Apostle says, the have been made blind aand they have veil over their hearts, that is until they acknowledge Christ.

No they haven't.

They are faithful to their scriptures, the very same scriptures that the NT says are ""God-breathed".

Those scriptures are specific regarding what the Messiah will do.  Unfortunately for your belief system, Jesus failed to do what the Jewish scriptures say.

Ezekiel says the Mesiah will build the third temple.  Jesus failed
In Isaiah we read how the Messiah will gather all Jews back in Israel.  Jesus failed
Where is the world peace that the Messiah was supposed to usher in?  Jesus failed

The Jews know their religion and it's not yours.

[ad_orientem]

No they haven't.

They are faithful to their scriptures, the very same scriptures that the NT says are ""God-breathed".

Those scriptures are specific regarding what the Messiah will do.  Unfortunately for your belief system, Jesus failed to do what the Jewish scriptures say.

Ezekiel says the Mesiah will build the third temple.  Jesus failed
In Isaiah we read how the Messiah will gather all Jews back in Israel.  Jesus failed
Where is the world peace that the Messiah was supposed to usher in?  Jesus failed

The Jews know their religion and it's not yours.

All those are examples of how the Jews never understood the scriptures. Christ is the temple. The Church is Israel. And when our Lord returns then all things will be made anew and their will be no death, disease or hunger, no war, but the everlasting peace due to those who believed in him.

[Sassy]

Khatru

I no longer respond to Sassy, but I was interested to learn, from her post above, that the Jewish faith existed prior to 25,000 - 23,000 BCE (the authenticated date of the Venus of Willendorf).

Being one of the more erudite on the subject of religious history, do you have any knowledge of this "fact". please. I have Googled over 100 sites and cannot find any such evidence.

I am loath to ask any of the Christian fraternity as I know I will only get a string of prevarication, lies, waffle and bulldust a mile long.

What he really means is... I stopped responding to him originally. But he could not respond to me because he could not bring an argument forward to defend his own position. As for the that the Jewish faith existed prior to 25,000 - 23,000 BCE (the authenticated date of the Venus of Willendorf).  All this is actually guess work there is absolutely NO proof for dating.
And the first man Adam was created by God and now they believe the world is 6,000 years old. THERE is absolutely NOTHING to suggest anything we have been told by scientist regarding historical finds is absolute on dates. THEY SIMPLY DO NOT KNOW.

But why should they not like they had books and printing presses going back through history.

Just look at the dates of the first books and the first calendars.... Seems someone needs to remember the atheists and pagans require more faith than Christians for what they believe.

[Aruntraveller]

THERE is absolutely NOTHING to suggest anything we have been told by scientist regarding historical finds is absolute on dates. THEY SIMPLY DO NOT KNOW.

The arrogance of some believers. I suppose God just made things look old to fool us?

Which makes God a deceiver and a cheat.

[floo]

All those are examples of how the Jews never understood the scriptures. Christ is the temple. The Church is Israel. And when our Lord returns then all things will be made anew and their will be no death, disease or hunger, no war, but the everlasting peace due to those who believed in him.

More assertions, no evidence!

[Sassy]

Every right. The Jews lost any divine inheretence they might have dad when they put their own Lord and God to death. The Church is the inheretor of the promise made to Abraham and the scriptures belong to the Church.

Do you mean Inheritance?

I see you believe man made teachings and not what God teaches.
Were Christ, Peter, Paul and the Apostles not Jews then?
For the Jews to lose divine inheritance they would literally have to lose all the promises God made to them.
Does Jerusalem in fact all Israel not belong to the Jews?

Do you know what Christ said:-


While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

So you have a false belief because your belief makes Christ a liar.
Christ is the Church, the Jews are the inheritors and all are made Jews in Christ.
No difference between Jew and Gentile...the Jews do not become gentiles the gentile becomes the Jew believing in the Messiah.
Circumcision of the heart not the flesh.


They lost nothing because Salvation came through the Jews. Christ himself saying:


Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Christ himself told the world when speaking to a Samaritan woman.
 The Roman Catholic Church is not the true Church of Christ there is no human intercessor on earth between God and man. There was Jesus Christ the ONLY way and the Holy Spirit whom people are baptised with when they believe in the truth about Jesus Christ.

As Christ said... the wise man built his house upon the rock... Jesus Christ... the rest is sinking sand...anything not centred on the truth about Jesus Christ.

So do not make statements which rely solely on man made beliefs.

[floo]

Do you mean Inheritance?

I see you believe man made teachings and not what God teaches.
Were Christ, Peter, Paul and the Apostles not Jews then?
For the Jews to lose divine inheritance they would literally have to lose all the promises God made to them.
Does Jerusalem in fact all Israel not belong to the Jews?

Do you know what Christ said:-


While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

So you have a false belief because your belief makes Christ a liar.
Christ is the Church, the Jews are the inheritors and all are made Jews in Christ.
No difference between Jew and Gentile...the Jews do not become gentiles the gentile becomes the Jew believing in the Messiah.
Circumcision of the heart not the flesh.


They lost nothing because Salvation came through the Jews. Christ himself saying:


Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Christ himself told the world when speaking to a Samaritan woman.
 The Roman Catholic Church is not the true Church of Christ there is no human intercessor on earth between God and man. There was Jesus Christ the ONLY way and the Holy Spirit whom people are baptised with when they believe in the truth about Jesus Christ.

As Christ said... the wise man built his house upon the rock... Jesus Christ... the rest is sinking sand...anything not centred on the truth about Jesus Christ.

So do not make statements which rely solely on man made beliefs.

But you do it all the time!

[Walter]

Sassy

just to let you know, I too will be ignoring your posts from now on .goodbye

[ad_orientem]

Do you mean Inheritance?

I see you believe man made teachings and not what God teaches.
Were Christ, Peter, Paul and the Apostles not Jews then?
For the Jews to lose divine inheritance they would literally have to lose all the promises God made to them.
Does Jerusalem in fact all Israel not belong to the Jews?

Do you know what Christ said:-


While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

So you have a false belief because your belief makes Christ a liar.
Christ is the Church, the Jews are the inheritors and all are made Jews in Christ.
No difference between Jew and Gentile...the Jews do not become gentiles the gentile becomes the Jew believing in the Messiah.
Circumcision of the heart not the flesh.


They lost nothing because Salvation came through the Jews. Christ himself saying:


Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Christ himself told the world when speaking to a Samaritan woman.
 The Roman Catholic Church is not the true Church of Christ there is no human intercessor on earth between God and man. There was Jesus Christ the ONLY way and the Holy Spirit whom people are baptised with when they believe in the truth about Jesus Christ.

As Christ said... the wise man built his house upon the rock... Jesus Christ... the rest is sinking sand...anything not centred on the truth about Jesus Christ.

So do not make statements which rely solely on man made beliefs.

Sass,
You are a heretic of the worst kind. Yes, the Apostles were Jews but in the end it counted for nothing. They are first and foremost descendents of Abraham by faith, as are all members of the Church, and it is the Church to which the promises and inheritance pertain. And try to get it through your thick skull that I'm not a Roman Catholic.

[floo]

Sass,
You are a heretic of the worst kind. Yes, the Apostles were Jews but in the end it counted for nothing. They are first and foremost descendents of Abraham by faith, as are all members of the Church, and it is the Church to which the promises and inheritance pertain. And try to get it through your thick skull that I'm not a Roman Catholic.

Is there a difference in belief between the RCC and the orthodox church?

[SteveH]

Then on what is the confidence based that allows some to be so sure that they are right and religious believers are wrong?

Balance of probability. There can be no proof in matters of belief, or indeed of any statement about the actual, existing world. "Proof" only applies to tautological statements, such as Aristotelian syllogisms, or mathematics. Evolution, for example, seems overwhelmingly likely, given the huge amount of evidence, but, strictly speaking, it can never be proved. You should stop bandying the word "prove" about if you want to be taken seriously.

[ad_orientem]

Is there a difference in belief between the RCC and the orthodox church?

http://www.orthodoxresource.co.uk/comparative/roman-catholic.htm

[floo]

http://www.orthodoxresource.co.uk/comparative/roman-catholic.htm

Thanks.

[Dicky Underpants]

The words that were translated or the real meanings of those words - the ultimate cop-out used by Christians when their interpretation of the biblical contents is challenged.

Quote - Oh, that is open to interpretation, the words meant something else then! - Unquote

Yeah maybe - I wonder how theologians will transate "total and utter bollocks" when applied to Christian scripture in the future?

Except that my message was meant to demonstrate that the passage in question in no way unequivocally states that the Bible is 'divinely inspired'. It is in fact a argument that totally opposes the fundamentalist view. Like it or not, much does depend on how a text is translated, and whether there is any indication that this was the original text in the first place. Sometimes you get an inevitable conclusion that supports fundamentalism - more often you get one which totally undermines it.

[Dicky Underpants]

Perhaps you can provide the Greek phrase that you believe means 'Jesus was angry' in Mark 1, Dicky.

A number of early manuscripts have "splagchnistheis", which does mean "moved by compassion". But some also read "orgistheis", which means "moved by anger". A number of modern commentators think this is the original and correct reading. It is significant that neither Matthew or Luke have either reading in their references to the incident, though one might suppose that "moved by compassion" would have been their immediate choice in quoting Mark. That may suggest some equivocation, or indeed that the text in front of them did indeed read "orgistheis" - angry, and they didn't like it.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ZcUUAAAAIAAJ

[Sassy]

Sassy

just to let you know, I too will be ignoring your posts from now on .goodbye

AND??? Not bothered... Am I bothered... does I sound bothered....
Think too much of yourself. Can I have it writing... I am happy to read the above. God is good.  You really didn't have anything to offer by means of discussion it will be easier on you.
 

[Sassy]

Sass,
You are a heretic of the worst kind. Yes, the Apostles were Jews but in the end it counted for nothing. They are first and foremost descendents of Abraham by faith, as are all members of the Church, and it is the Church to which the promises and inheritance pertain. And try to get it through your thick skull that I'm not a Roman Catholic.

HERETIC a word used by humans whose faith is in mans teachings not Gods.

Can hardly fit that bill.  Christ said: Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Listen to Christ not man.

[jeremyp]

All those are examples of how the Jews never understood the scriptures.

The arrogance of the Christian. How do you know that it's not you who doesn't understand.

Christ is the temple.

What a load of bollocks. The Temple was a building in Jerusalem used by Jews to worship in. The idea that it is a human being is comical and rather pathetic.

The Church is Israel.

Not all Jews are in the Church so that interpretation is still a failure.

And when our Lord returns then all things will be made anew and their will be no death, disease or hunger, no war, but the everlasting peace due to those who believed in him.

So you admit the World Peace prophecy hasn't happened.

That's three strikes- you're out.

[ad_orientem]

Jeremy,

You really have no clue, do you! You betray your ignorance of the scriptures and have fallen for the lies of Judaism. Read the gospels and the epistles. Christ is the temple. The Church is Israel, Abraham's descendants by faith, whether Jew or Gentile but circumcision of the flesh counts for nothing. As for the last bit, you need to understand the Apocalypse of St. John which you obviously don't. Know what the first resurrection is and you will understand the prophecy. Christ already reigns "The Lord said to my Lord etc". It doesn't matter what Judaism says for it is essentially nothing more than an apostate sect.

[Owlswing]

Jeremy,

You really have no clue, do you! You betray you ignorance of the scriptures and have fallen for the lies of Judaism. Read the gospels and the epistles. Christ is the temple. The Church is Israel, Abraham's descendents by faith, whether Jew or Gentile but circumcision of the flesh counts for nothing. As for the last bit, you need to understand the Apocalypse of St. John which you obviously don't. Know what the first resurrection is and you will understand the prophecy. Christ already reigns "The Lord said to my Lord etc". It doesn't matter what Judaism says for it is essentially nothing more than an apostate sect.

Yeah! A "sect" that pre-dates your load of old nonsense by centuries. As does Paganism as it happens.

Jesus-come-lately! A relatively new guy on the block. 2,000 years? A minor percentage of human history, a religion largely imposed by violence, physical or mental!

[Dicky Underpants]

Jeremy,

You really have no clue, do you! You betray your ignorance of the scriptures and have fallen for the lies of Judaism. Read the gospels and the epistles. Christ is the temple. The Church is Israel, Abraham's descendants by faith, whether Jew or Gentile but circumcision of the flesh counts for nothing. As for the last bit, you need to understand the Apocalypse of St. John which you obviously don't. Know what the first resurrection is and you will understand the prophecy. Christ already reigns "The Lord said to my Lord etc". It doesn't matter what Judaism says for it is essentially nothing more than an apostate sect.

This is all assertion. based on your interpretation - or that offered specifically by the Orthodox Church. Yes, we know (as does Jeremy, since he's well-read) that St Paul stated that circumcision of the flesh counts for nothing. He also said - depending on how you translate the passage -  that he "wished the circumcisers would go the whole hog and cut the lot off". Charming

As for the Apocalypse of St John - are you really suggesting that there is one unequivocal interpretation of this drug-fuelled fantasy? That text which has been the happy hunting ground of every lunatic sect and isolated religious fantasist since it was distributed?*

"Know what the first resurrection is ...." Well, since there are four different versions of Jesus' resurrection (and none at all in Mark) I would suggest that claims to know anything about such things amounts to pure speculation. In addition, to pick up on Owlswing's recent post, I'd make the assertion that all these matters about a resurrecting god derive from pagan religions predating Christianity by at least 600 years (which is not to say that there are no elements of historicity in Christianity - just that the Resurrection is not one of them).

*especially those filled with dynamic electrical energy.

[Khatru]

The arrogance of some believers. I suppose God just made things look old to fool us?

Which makes God a deceiver and a cheat.

Damn that god of Sassy's!

Damn him for filling the world with false clues like the fossil record.  Clues which he knew would fool people of logic and reason but wouldn't even faze believers who have abandoned logic and reason.