Author Topic: The Divinity of Scripture  (Read 22551 times)

Hope

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Re: The Divinity of Scripture
« Reply #125 on: November 12, 2016, 10:09:30 PM »
Please don't tell me Sass is an Usherite as well as everything else?
Don't know whether Sass believes that the earth was created at about 6pm on 22nd October 4004 BC, as Ussher calculated, but she does seem to be a young earth-er - a belief that I have still to find any evidence for in the Bible (OT or NT).
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Anchorman

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Re: The Divinity of Scripture
« Reply #126 on: November 12, 2016, 10:18:06 PM »
I don't think I have the patience to waste my time on the YEC thing again. As yet, the evidence I posted on threads last year has not been challenged - and you don't need to go into geology; archaeology and written history refute Usser dates without any trouble. This kind of stuff is a distraction from the core message of Scripture (but you, like most Christians, already know that!)
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Hope

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Re: The Divinity of Scripture
« Reply #127 on: November 12, 2016, 10:23:19 PM »
I don't think I have the patience to waste my time on the YEC thing again. As yet, the evidence I posted on threads last year has not been challenged - and you don't need to go into geology; archaeology and written history refute Usser dates without any trouble. This kind of stuff is a distraction from the core message of Scripture (but you, like most Christians, already know that!)
Quite agree, but trippy seems to be stuck in the 'Christianity=no fossils' belief system!!
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Nearly Sane

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Re: The Divinity of Scripture
« Reply #128 on: November 12, 2016, 10:27:16 PM »
Quite agree, but trippy seems to be stuck in the 'Christianity=no fossils' belief system!!
Except Anchorman's reply there was about you talking about Sassy.

Anchorman

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Re: The Divinity of Scripture
« Reply #129 on: November 12, 2016, 10:27:31 PM »
Yep. It might be hard to differentiate between various strands of Christian opinion - even within evangelical Christianity. I've a friend who is a very committed Christian yet expert in Palaeolithic remains and was involved in the recent BBC series documenting 'the Human journey" - and found absolutely no problems reconciling his faith with his discipline.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Hope

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Re: The Divinity of Scripture
« Reply #130 on: November 12, 2016, 10:30:53 PM »
Except Anchorman's reply there was about you talking about Sassy.
But triggered by trippy's post.  Post trail - #119, 122-125
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Nearly Sane

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Re: The Divinity of Scripture
« Reply #131 on: November 12, 2016, 10:32:43 PM »
But triggered by trippy's post.  Post trail - #119, 122-125
which is irrelevant to the context of the reply

Hope

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Re: The Divinity of Scripture
« Reply #132 on: November 12, 2016, 10:36:07 PM »
which is irrelevant to the context of the reply
Excuse me, NS - how can a particular post and the trail up to it be irrelevant to the reply?  After all, the original post was from me to Sass, and what I said in it was then picked up by Nick, whose post I responded to - to which Jim made his response.  Sass's understanding underpinned the whole trail.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: The Divinity of Scripture
« Reply #133 on: November 12, 2016, 10:45:01 PM »
Excuse me, NS - how can a particular post and the trail up to it be irrelevant to the reply?  After all, the original post was from me to Sass, and what I said in it was then picked up by Nick, whose post I responded to - to which Jim made his response.  Sass's understanding underpinned the whole trail.
because you were discussing Sassy at that stage, so Trippy's position was irrelevant

trippymonkey

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Re: The Divinity of Scripture
« Reply #134 on: November 13, 2016, 08:40:53 AM »
Quite agree, but trippy seems to be stuck in the 'Christianity=no fossils' belief system!!

I'm not stuck in anything but if you can confirm at least SOME Christians DO believe fossils even though the Bible more or less denies dinosaurs etc, then I'll be OK.
Personally I can't see why they can't go hand in hand. We've more proof of a T-Rex than Noah's Ark???

Nick

Anchorman

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Re: The Divinity of Scripture
« Reply #135 on: November 13, 2016, 08:53:01 AM »
'Course we have - 'cos I've got three of their albums.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Hope

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Re: The Divinity of Scripture
« Reply #136 on: November 13, 2016, 09:42:59 AM »
I'm not stuck in anything but if you can confirm at least SOME Christians DO believe fossils even though the Bible more or less denies dinosaurs etc, then I'll be OK.
The majority of Bible-believing Christians that I know believe in the fossil record, not least because the Bible makes no judgement on them - perhaps you can give us the reference(s) that you think do, Nick.  Furthermore, many also believe in the importance of science to humanity.

Quote
Personally I can't see why they can't go hand in hand. We've more proof of a T-Rex than Noah's Ark???
Well, since there could only be one of the latter and several thousands of the former, that doesn't prove anything.  As for the 'going hand in hand', that's precisely what I've been arguing regarding faith and science since the early days of my membership of this board.
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Hope

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Re: The Divinity of Scripture
« Reply #137 on: November 13, 2016, 09:45:22 AM »
because you were discussing Sassy at that stage, so Trippy's position was irrelevant
Except that the post you seem to have taken offence to was in response to one that Nick made on the comments I'd made on Sass's posts.  In other words, Nick's position/comment was no less relevant than Jim's or mine.
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trippymonkey

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Re: The Divinity of Scripture
« Reply #138 on: November 13, 2016, 09:46:21 AM »
Agreed Hope but

The majority of Bible-believing Christians ??? Excuse me, is there any other sort?

Nick

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Re: The Divinity of Scripture
« Reply #139 on: November 13, 2016, 09:50:20 AM »
I'm not stuck in anything but if you can confirm at least SOME Christians DO believe fossils even though the Bible more or less denies dinosaurs etc, then I'll be OK.
Personally I can't see why they can't go hand in hand. We've more proof of a T-Rex than Noah's Ark???

Nick

Fortunately many Christians are not Biblical literalists.

trippymonkey

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Re: The Divinity of Scripture
« Reply #140 on: November 13, 2016, 09:55:52 AM »
WELL THAT'S another post -A literal Bible.
I don't feel, after many years of studying Hindu literature, that the Bible IS literal.

Nick

floo

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Re: The Divinity of Scripture
« Reply #141 on: November 13, 2016, 09:59:28 AM »
WELL THAT'S another post -A literal Bible.
I don't feel, after many years of studying Hindu literature, that the Bible IS literal.

Nick

Nor do I, but the more extreme Christians believe god was behind every word in that book!

trippymonkey

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Re: The Divinity of Scripture
« Reply #142 on: November 13, 2016, 10:20:12 AM »
OH DEAR ?!?!!?
Do they???
How on earth ANYBODY can think that especially if you've actually READ it?!?!?!? It's very disjointed in places & contradictory too.?!!?!?

Nick

Ricky Spanish

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Re: The Divinity of Scripture
« Reply #143 on: November 13, 2016, 11:49:30 AM »

Even in the earliest versions of the NT we see two synoptic evangelists responding to the earlier text of Mark, and deliberately changing it, because the earlier text does not accord with their idea of Jesus. A typical example of this is Mark stating that "Jesus was angry"*. Matthew and Luke obviously didn't like the implication of this**.

*Mark 1:41
**Nor did many translators. The NIV is honest enough to translate this "Jesus was indignant", though early texts prefer to skew the Greek to mean "Jesus was moved by pity". Since Jesus has just been asked by a leper to be cured, it's easy to see why from the earliest times the text has caused translators and commentators a degree of confusion. After all, Jesus has just informed the assembled crowds, via a text from Isaiah, that he has come to "heal the sick" and all kinds of other wonderful things.

Perhaps you can provide the Greek phrase that you believe means 'Jesus was angry' in Mark 1, Dicky.

In most texts, that phrase would be splagxnízomai/σπλαγχνισθεὶς (compassion/pity) but we also have the Codex Bezae in which it is written that Jesus, instead of showing compassion displayed anger: orgízō/ὀργισθείς which correlates with the end of the passage where Jesus orders the guy not to tell anyone.

There is good reason to accept the original phrasing was orgízō over splagxnízomai as the scribes of the later stories chose not to include either phrases in their writings; Matt 8:3 and Luke 5:13 respectively. If the original they were copying from had used compassion instead of anger they would have had no difficulty in saying so, but an angry Jesus at a reasonable request from a sick man was not the sort of Man they wanted to portray.

Which also explains why the later copyists of Mark chose to replace angry with pity!!

« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 11:52:55 AM by Ricky Spanish »
UNDERSTAND - I MAKE OPINIONS. IF YOUR ARGUMENTS MAKE ME QUESTION MY OPINION THEN I WILL CONSIDER THEM.

floo

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Re: The Divinity of Scripture
« Reply #144 on: November 13, 2016, 12:05:19 PM »
OH DEAR ?!?!!?
Do they???
How on earth ANYBODY can think that especially if you've actually READ it?!?!?!? It's very disjointed in places & contradictory too.?!!?!?

Nick

I think they read it wearing roses coloured specs, making excuses for the passages which show god to be highly unpleasant!

Hope

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Re: The Divinity of Scripture
« Reply #145 on: November 13, 2016, 02:41:55 PM »
Those of you interested in the interface of science and faith, especially in the context of Brexit, may find this of interest.

http://www.jri.org.uk/wp/wp-content/uploads/BP31_Weaver_European_Environmental_Policy_LiveLinks.pdf
« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 02:47:20 PM by Hope »
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Hope

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Re: The Divinity of Scripture
« Reply #146 on: November 13, 2016, 02:46:47 PM »
Fortunately many Christians are not Biblical literalists.
Fortunately, Floo, most Christians ARE Biblical literalists.  They read it in the way that it was written - be that as poetry. prophecy, theology, comedy and, yes, occasionally as history.  Those who follow the 'Ussher-type' of reading aren't literalists; they are - to coin a phrase - langulists - their understanding is dependent on the English language (predominantly), and ignores the fact that in some aspects, English is a rather poor cousin to Latin and Greek, let alone Hebrew.
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floo

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Re: The Divinity of Scripture
« Reply #147 on: November 13, 2016, 03:02:19 PM »
Fortunately, Floo, most Christians ARE Biblical literalists.  They read it in the way that it was written - be that as poetry. prophecy, theology, comedy and, yes, occasionally as history.  Those who follow the 'Ussher-type' of reading aren't literalists; they are - to coin a phrase - langulists - their understanding is dependent on the English language (predominantly), and ignores the fact that in some aspects, English is a rather poor cousin to Latin and Greek, let alone Hebrew.

I am not sure I follow your definition of Biblical literalist? Do you mean they believe every word in the Bible is literally true, like the creation story and the flood for instance? If you do mean that then I think only the more extreme Christians like the 'you must be 'saved' lot are BLs. Most moderate Christians don't see it that way.

Hope

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Re: The Divinity of Scripture
« Reply #148 on: November 13, 2016, 04:17:02 PM »
I am not sure I follow your definition of Biblical literalist? Do you mean they believe every word in the Bible is literally true, like the creation story and the flood for instance? If you do mean that then I think only the more extreme Christians like the 'you must be 'saved' lot are BLs. Most moderate Christians don't see it that way.
No, I mean that they believe that every word is true in the way in which it was written - so, for instance, a common Jewish literary technique was hyperbole; research is increasingly showing that the early chapters of Genesis was never written as history, but as theology.  Then you get wisdom (Proverbs) and poetry (Psalms) which often use language in other than its everyday usage.

Literal interpretations need to take all of these complexities into account!!
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floo

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Re: The Divinity of Scripture
« Reply #149 on: November 13, 2016, 04:24:22 PM »
No, I mean that they believe that every word is true in the way in which it was written - so, for instance, a common Jewish literary technique was hyperbole; research is increasingly showing that the early chapters of Genesis was never written as history, but as theology.  Then you get wisdom (Proverbs) and poetry (Psalms) which often use language in other than its everyday usage.

Literal interpretations need to take all of these complexities into account!!

Hmmmmmmmmm! I take that to mean you can interpret the Bible in a convenient way to support one's prejudices like homophobia!