Author Topic: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence  (Read 90081 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #700 on: November 15, 2016, 12:40:31 PM »
Gonners,

Quote
Under the mat!! Typical atheist thinking!! My door is unlocked  ;)

Front and back doors presumably:

"Keep your minds open—but not so open that your brains fall out.”

(Prof. Walter Kotschnig)



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God

Gonnagle

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #701 on: November 15, 2016, 12:49:57 PM »
Dear Blue,

Quote
Front and back doors presumably:

Revolving!! Old friend ;)

Gonnagle.
http://www.barnardos.org.uk/shop/shop-search.htm

http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Go on make a difference, have a rummage in your attic or garage.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #702 on: November 15, 2016, 01:07:09 PM »
Gonners,

Quote
Revolving!! Old friend ;)

Ah, that explains why you're such an accomplished smoothie - you practice by walking into the revolving door behind someone and coming out ahead...
« Last Edit: November 15, 2016, 05:28:19 PM by bluehillside »
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Enki

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #703 on: November 15, 2016, 01:07:31 PM »
Dear Blue,

Under the mat!! Typical atheist thinking!! My door is unlocked  ;)

Gonnagle.

I must be in the wrong house then.  I've found the cat! I've found the key! Oh, shit, the key doesn't fit the doorlock! Well, I can't say that I'm curious anymore to see what's beyond the door. Oh shit, the  cat's just popped its clogs. ;)
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
Steven Wright

wigginhall

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #704 on: November 15, 2016, 01:53:48 PM »
Well, AB's phrase, 'I find it hard to imagine' is hilarious really.  I do find it hard to imagine how gravity could be a curvature in spacetime, or how quasars are so distant yet so bright, or how photons can't experience time.   Furthermore I intend to write to the Royal Society informing them of my inability to imagine these things, and just what do they propose to do about it.   I expect at least that an A-level in not imagining will be set up, where we look at lots of things that are hard to imagine.  I've just about had enough of not being able to imagine!
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Sebastian Toe

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #705 on: November 15, 2016, 02:42:03 PM »
Dear Blue,

Under the mat!! Typical atheist thinking!! My door is unlocked  ;)

Gonnagle.
Opened for you, not open to you.
The door might still have to be unlocked before it is opened for you!
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Udayana

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #706 on: November 15, 2016, 02:58:04 PM »
You're on your toes Mr Toe! :)
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Walter

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #707 on: November 15, 2016, 03:57:21 PM »
Dear Waltz,

What door! Where is the door! Show me the door! Where is this key!

I have been a member of this forum and the old Beeb for more years than I care to mention and no one has shown/mentioned any key or door, maybe it is because there are so many atheists standing in front of the door blocking my view.

Nevermind, I will keep searching, reading/listening to great minds who no matter how much they keep waffling on about a world without God still can't help bringing God into the equation.

https://www.closertotruth.com/

Gonnagle.

I am now going to introduce another concept which will no doubt confuse you too. A small BUBBLE, and you live in it , outside of that bubble exists a whole universe which you have no concept of. You are stuck my friend, STUCK

SusanDoris

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #708 on: November 15, 2016, 03:58:02 PM »
There are times when reading AB's posts that I feel the only thing to do is to sit and weep quietly in a corner!! :D However, the last collection of light-hearted posts and wigginhall's good one just above here have put that off for another day! So thank you all!
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

Walter

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #709 on: November 15, 2016, 04:22:18 PM »
There are times when reading AB's posts that I feel the only thing to do is to sit and weep quietly in a corner!! :D However, the last collection of light-hearted posts and wigginhall's good one just above here have put that off for another day! So thank you all!

SD please do not despair, take my hands and together  we can share a moment in quiet contemplation and CRITICAL THINKING .

Alan Burns

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #710 on: November 16, 2016, 11:23:47 AM »
AB

your tag line is 'the truth will set you free'

you must be living a nightmare of eternal imprisonment languishing in darkness flailing your arms in desperation hoping someone will come and open the door.

The key to that door has been offered to you on this board, you could open that door yourself , just pick up the key and open that door to freedom.
I have known God all my life.
How can I possibly doubt the existence of someone I know?
And why should I ever contemplate giving up the most precious gift anyone could ever possess?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #711 on: November 16, 2016, 11:45:45 AM »
AB,

Big nope. Consider the eye (which has evolved independently various times by the way). Each "incremental step" conferred enough benefit to the host organism to give it an evolutionary advantage. A slight dip in the skin surface for example would create a shadow at predicatble times of the day/night cycle, which in turn is key to circadian rhythms, which in turn would allow the organisms to release eggs and sperm on a co-ordinated basis, which in turn would lead to disproportionately more organisms with dips, which in turn would create a population with dips as the pool from which the next beneficial mutation would occur and so on until complex eyes emerged.

Here's a link that may help you: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_eye
I am well aware of attempts by very clever people to postulate a method by which the eye could evolve by discrete steps.  But can you not see that this is showing just how intelligently guided evolution could work?  The big assumption in such illustrations is that the specific mutations required for each step in the process will occur naturally by unguided random forces over time.  The harsh reality is that such a specific sequence of mutations could never be produced by random events.  The DNA molecule can be likened to a huge computer program with billions of instructions needed to construct and maintain a human being.  From personal experience, I know that random copying errors in a computer program produce errors, not enhanced results.  And you need someone intelligent to write the program in the first place.
Quote

incidentally, have you now abandoned your earlier mistake about extinction being necessary for a genetic mutation to become embedded in a population?
No.
For natural selection to work, a beneficial mutation needs to give survival advantage.   Implying that those without the beneficial mutation will not survive - hence extinction.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2016, 12:41:20 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Walter

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #712 on: November 16, 2016, 12:16:51 PM »
I have known God all my life.
How can I possibly doubt the existence of someone I know?
And why should I ever contemplate giving up the most precious gift anyone could ever possess?

how come I don't know him? have I been ignored for a reason?

Alan Burns

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #713 on: November 16, 2016, 12:36:52 PM »
how come I don't know him? have I been ignored for a reason?
Try opening the door
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Walter

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #714 on: November 16, 2016, 12:45:45 PM »

torridon

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #715 on: November 16, 2016, 12:48:40 PM »
I am well aware of attempts by very clever people to postulate a method by which the eye could evolve by discrete steps.  But can you not see that this is showing just how intelligently guided evolution could work? 

In other words, 'intelligently guided selection' is indistinguishable from natural selection.  So why then, would a god with design and purpose in mind opt to create his designs using apparently randomised methods that we cannot distinguish from unguided natural methods ?  It's as if God is devious and cunning, hiding his intervention so that no one could detect his hand at work.

The big assumption in such illustrations is that the specific mutations required for each step in the process will occur naturally by unguided random forces over time.  The harsh reality is that such a specific sequence of mutations could never be produced by random events.  The DNA molecule can be likened to a huge computer program with billions of instructions needed to construct and maintain a human being.  From personal experience, I know that random copying errors in a computer program produce errors, not enhanced results.No.

Well that is really just a poor analogy in the way you have framed it.  There are, however, specialist computer modelling methods that are used in evolutionary biology to mimic the principles of descent with variation and selection, and these have no problems with speciation such as you imagine.

For natural selection to work, a beneficial mutation needs to give survival advantage.   Implying that those without the beneficial mutation will not survive - hence extinction.

You've already been corrected on this by several posters.  Absence of a beneficial mutation is not going to drive a species into extinction.  Most humans lack the beneficial mutation of the LCT gene that allows adults to tolerate lactose into adulthood, and yet most humans have not gone extinct.

torridon

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #716 on: November 16, 2016, 12:52:03 PM »
Try opening the door

If we open the door, is that going to mean that we all start misunderstanding things to the extent that you seem to display ?  I'm really not sure if you get so many things wrong because of your faith, or do you have a faith because you get so many things wrong ! Which is it ?

wigginhall

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #717 on: November 16, 2016, 01:06:42 PM »
'Intelligently guided evolution could work', well, yes this is correct.   However, unguided evolution can also be shown to work.   The ID people used to witter on about intermediate stages being missing, but in the case of the eye, there is plenty of work showing different kinds of eye, ranging from the 'eye-spot', which can detect light.   In addition, these have evolved independently a number of times.   I suppose if God is behind it, he kept trying new models!

As torridon says, why the hell  would an all-powerful God use the gradual process of evolution, involving random mutations plus selection,  in any case?   I guess he's hiding.
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Walter

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #718 on: November 16, 2016, 01:47:47 PM »
AB

 please answer with honesty, it was a serious question

Alan Burns

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #719 on: November 16, 2016, 02:31:15 PM »
AB

 please answer with honesty, it was a serious question
It was a serious answer.
To allow God into your life you need to open up to the possibility that He exists.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Maeght

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #720 on: November 16, 2016, 02:37:12 PM »
It's possible God exists.

Now what?

Alan Burns

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #721 on: November 16, 2016, 02:47:01 PM »
In other words, 'intelligently guided selection' is indistinguishable from natural selection.  So why then, would a god with design and purpose in mind opt to create his designs using apparently randomised methods that we cannot distinguish from unguided natural methods ?  It's as if God is devious and cunning, hiding his intervention so that no one could detect his hand at work.

Well that is really just a poor analogy in the way you have framed it.  There are, however, specialist computer modelling methods that are used in evolutionary biology to mimic the principles of descent with variation and selection, and these have no problems with speciation such as you imagine.
But no modelling system can mimic the true reality of unguided random events generating beneficial mutations to real DNA
Quote
Quote
Quote from: Alan Burns on Today at 11:45:45 AM

    For natural selection to work, a beneficial mutation needs to give survival advantage.   Implying that those without the beneficial mutation will not survive - hence extinction.

You've already been corrected on this by several posters.  Absence of a beneficial mutation is not going to drive a species into extinction.  Most humans lack the beneficial mutation of the LCT gene that allows adults to tolerate lactose into adulthood, and yet most humans have not gone extinct.
I was referring to the mutations which get inherited by the entire race.  In particular the intermediate mutations needed to generate complex beneficial elements which offer little or no benefit in themselves.  Perhaps it would be better to refer to them as inherited mutations. 
« Last Edit: November 16, 2016, 03:10:36 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Walter

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #722 on: November 16, 2016, 03:03:51 PM »
But no modelling system can mimic the true reality of unguided random events generation beneficial mutations to real DNAYou've already been corrected on this by several posters.  Absence of a beneficial mutation is not going to drive a species into extinction.  Most humans lack the beneficial mutation of the LCT gene that allows adults to tolerate lactose into adulthood, and yet most humans have not gone extinct.

I was referring to the mutations which get inherited by the entire race.  In particular the intermediate mutations needed to generate complex beneficial elements which offer little or no benefit in themselves.  Perhaps it would be better to refer to them as inherited mutations.
AB

I am no expert on evolutionary biology ,but I know where you can find some . Are you an expert? if you are I think you are playing games with us, if not please refer to those who are .DONT just guess how stuff works in order for it to fit into how you would like it to work. This is all getting very tedious now

wigginhall

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #723 on: November 16, 2016, 03:18:23 PM »
But no modelling system can mimic the true reality of unguided random events generating beneficial mutations to real DNAYou've already been corrected on this by several posters.  Absence of a beneficial mutation is not going to drive a species into extinction.  Most humans lack the beneficial mutation of the LCT gene that allows adults to tolerate lactose into adulthood, and yet most humans have not gone extinct.

I was referring to the mutations which get inherited by the entire race.  In particular the intermediate mutations needed to generate complex beneficial elements which offer little or no benefit in themselves.  Perhaps it would be better to refer to them as inherited mutations.

I wonder if you are going to provide some kind of mathematical or statistical back-up to your arguments.   So far, you have made some unsupported assertions, that the combination of random mutations and selection cannot drive evolution.  Obviously, professional biologists and geneticists have taken an interest in the mathematical aspects of this, and have modelled various lineages.   Can you now provide such workings for your arguments?   

http://www.pnas.org/content/107/52/22454.full
« Last Edit: November 16, 2016, 03:22:49 PM by wigginhall »
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #724 on: November 16, 2016, 05:06:17 PM »
AB,

Quote
I am well aware of attempts by very clever people to postulate a method by which the eye could evolve by discrete steps.

It’s not “attempts by very clever people”, it’s facts and evidence supported by experiments and modelling and testable predictions. That the people doing it are often very clever is a good thing, not a bad one but even if they weren’t either the facts and evidence would stand on their merit or they wouldn’t.

Quote
But can you not see that this is showing just how intelligently guided evolution could work?

“Intelligently guided” anything could work any way the intelligence wanted it to. The conjecture is though not supported by the evidence and it's unnecessary given that evolution demonstrably works without it. It would also incidentally seem an odd way for an intelligent designer god to work – vast numbers of trial and error events, with only a very few succeeding.   

Quote
The big assumption in such illustrations is that the specific mutations required for each step in the process will occur naturally by unguided random forces over time.

No, the “big assumption” is that the end (or current) results were the intended outcomes all along. Once you dispense with that assumption, all becomes clear. 

Quote
The harsh reality is that such a specific sequence of mutations could never be produced by random events.

No, the “harsh reality” is that probabilistically people and giant redwoods and dragonflies may seem unlikely given the countless interactions of random mutations with environments they required, but it’s still a problem that disappears once you remove the daftness of thinking that these particular organisms were in some way the intended outcomes all along.

Quote
The DNA molecule can be likened to a huge computer program with billions of instructions needed to construct and maintain a human being.  From personal experience, I know that random copying errors in a computer program produce errors, not enhanced results.  And you need someone intelligent to write the program in the first place.

No you don’t because the analogy is a false one. Random mutations produce adaptations that may or may not better help the organism to survive and breed in its environment. 

Quote
No.

For natural selection to work, a beneficial mutation needs to give survival advantage.   Implying that those without the beneficial mutation will not survive - hence extinction.

No, it needs a “survival advantage” only in the sense that it enables populations with the mutation to establish, and that can be a localised phenomenon. There are countless examples of parent and daughter species co-existing.

Look, wouldn’t it be more honest if you just came clean here and said, “OK, I clearly know nothing about the theory I presume to critique but I don’t like it because it contradicts the version of religious faith I happen to have” and be done with it?   
« Last Edit: November 16, 2016, 06:10:56 PM by bluehillside »
"Don't make me come down there."

God