AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence

[Walter]

Blue given enough time we humans might evolve into a comb and brush set , who knows ? would AB still be using intelligent design to describe what's going on ? probably!

[Walter]

It was a serious answer.
To allow God into your life you need to open up to the possibility that He exists.

I shouldn't need to , it would be obvious for all to see. Therein lies your problem.

[wigginhall]

It's one of the killer blows to ID, that an intelligent all-powerful being would use trial and error on a vast scale, in order to produce slow changes in nature.   Why on earth would it do that? 

I was reading an account of a research team working in the Galapagos, who were studying the interaction between changes in climate and changes to biometrics in birds, for example, birds' beaks change, when the climate gets wetter or drier.   No need for any 'guidance'.

Incidentally, on intelligent guidance, an ice-cube melting in a glass might be guided by an all-powerful intelligence.  I wonder why physicists don't take that into account?  Hmm.

http://bioscience.oxfordjournals.org/content/53/10/965.full

[Sebastian Toe]

I am well aware of attempts by very clever people to postulate a method by which the eye could evolve by discrete steps.  But can you not see that this is showing just how intelligently guided evolution could work? 

How exactly does it work though?
What form does this guidance take?

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I have known God all my life.

No, you have believed there to be a god all your life. Whether there's ever actually been a god there to believe in is moot, to put it mildly.
 

How can I possibly doubt the existence of someone I know?

What you can doubt is whether there's a "someone" there at all.

And why should I ever contemplate giving up the most precious gift anyone could ever possess?

No reason at all. If you think your belief to be well-founded and you find it comforting that's no-one's business but your own. What you can't expect though is for anyone else to take it seriously just because you happen to believe it, and nor for that matter are you entitled to your own facts - as you've attempted here about evolution for example.     

[Walter]

How exactly does it work though?
What form does this guidance take?

god set up the electric potential between the inside and outside of the cell membrane and fucked off.

[Alan Burns]

It's one of the killer blows to ID, that an intelligent all-powerful being would use trial and error on a vast scale, in order to produce slow changes in nature.   Why on earth would it do that? 

With our limited senses, we do not see enough of the big picture to presume to know why God does things in the way He does.  But I do believe that God manipulates (not overrides) the existing laws of nature to bring about His creation, so the gradual manipulation of natural elements and forces to produce complex life forms over millions of years is no reason to doubt His existence.

[Walter]

With our limited senses, we do not see enough of the big picture to presume to know why God does things in the way He does.  But I do believe that God manipulates (not overrides) the existing laws of nature to bring about His creation, so the gradual manipulation of natural elements and forces to produce complex life forms over millions of years is no reason to doubt His existence.

which laws are you referring to ?

the manipulation of laws is an oxymoron.

[torridon]

With our limited senses, we do not see enough of the big picture to presume to know why God does things in the way He does.  But I do believe that God manipulates (not overrides) the existing laws of nature to bring about His creation, so the gradual manipulation of natural elements and forces to produce complex life forms over millions of years is no reason to doubt His existence.

You are having your cake and eating it.

It makes no sense to claim that God manipulates, not overrides. the laws of nature.  Any supernatural intervention to alter the natural course of events is overriding what would otherwise happen according to the laws of nature.  You are just playing with words.

Furthermore, this is every 'reason to doubt His existence', not least because it is so deeply self-contradictory. A God that is good and all powerful and omnibenevolent would not simultaneously appear to be such an incompetent devious fudger as you would have us believe.

[Alan Burns]

which laws are you referring to ?

the manipulation of laws is an oxymoron.

So if I use my free will to manipulate a rock to fall on your head using the law of gravity would that be an oxymoron?  Such actions demonstrate the amazing power of free will which God has given us to consciously interact with nature and its laws to bring about human creations (or human destruction).

[wigginhall]

When AB says, 'I do believe that ...', generally you know that a load of tripe is coming.   But this time, it's beyond tripe, it's intellectual suicide.   'The gradual manipulation of natural elements' - who dreams up this garbage?   

The strange thing about it is that it accepts that evolution is at work, but fakes some kind of God-driven agency behind it.   No evidence, no research work, just a complete parasitic dependence on science, but 'God does it'.   

How can any intelligent adult accept this?

[Walter]

remove the word   'intelligent' from your last sentence

[torridon]

So if I use my free will to manipulate a rock to fall on your head using the law of gravity would that be an oxymoron?  Such actions demonstrate the amazing power of free will which God has given us to consciously interact with nature and its laws to bring about human creations (or human destruction).

What you refer to as human free will, is of course, not really free, it is a product of the laws of nature and subject to the laws of nature, neither supervening it nor overriding it.  You could argue that there is a God with divine free will, which might be truly free, but you still end up with a logical paradox ultimately when you think through where god's desires (for intervention) come from.

[Walter]

AB

have a look on YouTube at Carl Sagan's 'Pale Blue Dot' and tell me why you think you/we are so special

[Maeght]

So if I use my free will to manipulate a rock to fall on your head using the law of gravity would that be an oxymoron?  Such actions demonstrate the amazing power of free will which God has given us to consciously interact with nature and its laws to bring about human creations (or human destruction).

Such an action is not a manipulation of the laws but an application of the laws (nor is it a demonstration of free will but that's been debated enough). So is God limited to working withing the existing laws?

[wigginhall]

Such an action is not a manipulation of the laws but an application of the laws (nor is it a demonstration of free will but that's been debated enough). So is God limited to working withing the existing laws?

That's the bizarre thing about these arguments.  As far as I can see, AB seems to be saying that all the components of evolution, whether it be mutations, selection, genetic drift, and so on, are being faithfully modelled by God.   Well, isn't that something?  So when you see an ice-cube melting, have no doubt that God is 'manipulating' it somewhere, somehow.   After all, it's to hard imagine anything else, isn't it?

[SwordOfTheSpirit]

#726

It was a serious answer.
To allow God into your life you need to open up to the possibility that He exists

I shouldn't need to , it would be obvious for all to see. Therein lies your problem.

If it were obvious for all to see (as you and Floo want), belief would not be necessary. You would have no choice in the matter. See for example the history of the Israelites in the Old Testament from when they came out of Egypt in Exodus. God dwelt among them, so no belief was necessary.

Would you prefer to be in a position where you have no choice, or would you prefer the existing situation where you have free-will and can choose?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sword,

If it were obvious for all to see (as you and Floo want), belief would not be necessary. You would have no choice in the matter. See for example the history of the Israelites in the Old Testament from when they came out of Egypt in Exodus. God dwelt among them, so no belief was necessary.

Would you prefer to be in a position where you have no choice, or would you prefer the existing situation where you have free-will and can choose?

Actually, belief would be but “faith” in its religious sense wouldn’t. In any case, being “free to choose” is fine and dandy but do you not think that this “God” of yours should at least have had the decency to make the choice a meaningful one by providing some evidence for his existence at all?

And while he was at it, perhaps he could have armed those who evangelise for him with arguments for his existence that aren’t so evidently false. Of course the panoply of bad arguments they/you attempt do not of themselves mean that there is no god, but you’d have though he’d have given himself at least a fighting chance by provided a few good ones too. 

[Gordon]

#726If it were obvious for all to see (as you and Floo want), belief would not be necessary. You would have no choice in the matter. See for example the history of the Israelites in the Old Testament from when they came out of Egypt in Exodus. God dwelt among them, so no belief was necessary.

So the story goes: how would you exclude the risk that this aspect is fictional propaganda?

[SusanDoris]

So the story goes: how would you exclude the risk that this aspect is fictional propaganda?

And now, as so often happens, I expect I shall be looking out in vain for a direct answer to this question.

[Walter]

#726If it were obvious for all to see (as you and Floo want), belief would not be necessary. You would have no choice in the matter. See for example the history of the Israelites in the Old Testament from when they came out of Egypt in Exodus. God dwelt among them, so no belief was necessary.

Would you prefer to be in a position where you have no choice, or would you prefer the existing situation where you have free-will and can choose?

This is a false dichotomy and that nonsense about the exodus is irrelevant. There's no evidence for it

[Alan Burns]

You are having your cake and eating it.

It makes no sense to claim that God manipulates, not overrides. the laws of nature.  Any supernatural intervention to alter the natural course of events is overriding what would otherwise happen according to the laws of nature.  You are just playing with words.

But surely my "playing with words" is ample evidence that I can interact with the laws of nature using my powers of free will.  Or do you really believe that everything that I (or anyone else) writes on this forum is the inevitable result of all the physical chain reactions that have occurred ever since the universe went Bang?  So if we can do it, why not God?

[Walter]

But surely my "playing with words" is ample evidence that I can interact with the laws of nature using my powers of free will.  Or do you really believe that everything that I (or anyone else) writes on this forum is the inevitable result of all the physical chain reactions that have occurred ever since the universe went Bang?  So if we can do it, why not God?

AB
This is a genuine question,

after all the posts against you, what motivates you to keep going with you nonsense? ,I would have packed up and left ages ago.

[Alan Burns]

That's the bizarre thing about these arguments.  As far as I can see, AB seems to be saying that all the components of evolution, whether it be mutations, selection, genetic drift, and so on, are being faithfully modelled by God.   Well, isn't that something?  So when you see an ice-cube melting, have no doubt that God is 'manipulating' it somewhere, somehow.   After all, it's to hard imagine anything else, isn't it?

It is pretty obvious that an ice cube needs no intelligent manipulation to help it to melt.  But when you see an ice sculpture, you could correctly conclude that some intelligent manipulation was used to form the sculpture you see.  And when you look at the human DNA molecule, the most complex thing known to exist, can you really compare it to the melting of an ice cube?

[Alan Burns]

AB
This is a genuine question,

after all the posts against you, what motivates you to keep going with you nonsense? ,I would have packed up and left ages ago.

If I was here for an ego trip I agree I should have given up long ago.
(you may see further evidence of my persistence amongst over thirteen thousand posts on the "Searching for God" thread under the Christian topic)
But God calls me to be a witness to the truth, and despite all the negative comments and counter arguments I still have the will to carry on.  I tried to give up and call it a day after just a few days on this forum, but after receiving several PM messages of encouragement I felt God was asking me to carry on.  And when you say "Yes" to God, He will give you all the strength you need to carry out the task.