AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence

[Gordon]

But nor does that make it untrue, Walter.  There have been a number of thinks that have been used in medicine over the centuries that have only been proved to be efficacious by modern medicine.  Quinine comes to mind.

So what? That the chemistry of how substances once used as medicines 'worked' was once not known and is now better understood makes no difference to the known early efficacy of the substances in question, although more knowledge comes better understanding of these substances and of course the development of synthetic versions and classes of medicines not available until modern times.   

There is this assumption on the part of some here (an assumption that has no evidentary support that I have ever been given) that says that science will ultimately show faith to be untrue.

Leaving aside the straw man here, since I don't think anyone is saying precisely that, the role of science is not to demonstrate that faith is 'untrue'. For example, one doesn't need science to reject fallacious arguments.

Science is as likely to prove faith true as it is to prove it untrue, especially when one remembers that they are dealing with two very different aspects of reality.

Then you misunderstand science, although we knew that anyway. So these two 'different aspects of reality' are what exactly?

[Walter]

JUST PRODUCE YOUR EVIDENCE...... PLEASE


OR admit you have none.  I would rather accept that than the ridiculous arguments you think you have to support your claims.
You could say 'i have no proof ,I have no evidence, its purely unsupported faith in something I want to be true' A least that way you would be telling the truth.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Walt,

You want evidence! Just go and look in a mirror, all the evidence you need, and yes! God does have a sense of humour.

Gonnagle.

[Walter]

Dear Walt,

You want evidence! Just go and look in a mirror, all the evidence you need, and yes! God does have a sense of humour.

Gonnagle.

Dear Gonnagle
that was funny. thanks
did you know, when god created you he gave you a finite number of words. Use them wisely 

[Owlswing]

This is something that baffles me - why can Christians not just accept that their faith gives them comfort, some wise words, and whatever?   There are a set of symbols, which I find impressive, there are rituals, ditto, and so on.

I have been trying to get this over for as long as I can remember on this forum.

I am, by the standards of some, a religious man.

I believe in my deities, unlike others I believe that there are more than one and they are of (at least) two sexes.

I believe that they are more worthy of my respect than Christ and his father because they do not set themselves up as being more perfect that or superior to we humans and happily show that they are prey to the same weaknesses and foibles as we.

Nor do they demand our unquestioning obedience and grovelling respect in order that our bodiesd be allowed to rest easy in our graves.

Yes, I believe that they possess powers that we do not, I believe that they control things like winds, seas and storms.

BUT! Bloody big BUT, I do not insist that they are the only deities that exist, they are neither superior to or inferior to any other deities.

I admit, and here is the biggest difference between my beliefs and those of the ULTRA-Christians of all sects and levels of belief here, I know that my beliefs are just that, beliefs, they are a matter of faith and not, so far as I, or, in my opinion, anyone else can show evidentially, factual/real.

Christians, especially several on here, call Christianity their faith but insist it is fact on the basis of a book that might just have been relevent 2,000 years ago, that has, over the centuries, had to be updated due to ever-increasing knowledge of our world and its history, but which had not been so updated for so long that it is no longer of an use outside belief/faith!     

[Owlswing]

JUST PRODUCE YOUR EVIDENCE...... PLEASE


OR admit you have none.  I would rather accept that than the ridiculous arguments you think you have to support your claims.
You could say 'i have no proof ,I have no evidence, its purely unsupported faith in something I want to be true' A least that way you would be telling the truth.

DO NOT HOLD YOUR BREATH WAITING FOR AN ANSWER! but, if you do, give us the details of your funeral so we can attend in respeect of your efforts to move an immoveable object! HOPE!

[Aruntraveller]

but which had not been so updated for so long that it is no longer of an use outside belief/faith!     

Or an outside lav.

[wigginhall]

Owlswing - yes, that's it.  Pagans generally don't seem to insist on the actual existence of their deities, well, not as Christians do, nor on arguments which demonstrate the 'truth' of their ideas.

I see religions as sets of symbols, which have different meanings, and may be interesting or not.   I often give the example of my local shaman, who talks about power animals.   I quite enjoy listening to her stuff, but I don't take it literally, but symbolically.  For some reason, Christians never do this, not sure why.   Maybe they were seduced by the scientific revolution, dunno.

[Walter]

Owlswing
 I admire your honesty
thank you

[Hope]

I believe that they are more worthy of my respect than Christ and his father because they do not set themselves up as being more perfect that or superior to we humans and happily show that they are prey to the same weaknesses and foibles as we.

Could it be that they are just that - 'prey to weaknesses and foibles as we (are)' - that makes them unattractive to such as me, owl?

Nor do they demand our unquestioning obedience and grovelling respect in order that our bodiesd be allowed to rest easy in our graves.

Interestingly enough, The Christian God does none of this either, so what's the complaint?

BUT! Bloody big BUT, I do not insist that they are the only deities that exist, they are neither superior to or inferior to any other deities.

So, what makes them worth respecting ot treating in a worthy fashion? 

I admit, and here is the biggest difference between my beliefs and those of the ULTRA-Christians of all sects and levels of belief here, I know that my beliefs are just that, beliefs, they are a matter of faith and not, so far as I, or, in my opinion, anyone else can show evidentially, factual/real.

Christians, especially several on here, call Christianity their faith but insist it is fact on the basis of a book that might just have been relevent 2,000 years ago, that has, over the centuries, had to be updated due to ever-increasing knowledge of our world and its history, but which had not been so updated for so long that it is no longer of an use outside belief/faith!   

Might I point out, Owl, that the book you so happily disparage has never been 'up-dated' due to any 'ever-increasing knowledge of our world' - if anything that ever-increasing knowledge has simply added detail to what the Bible says.  I accept that the language has had to change over the centuries, but that has more to do with the way in which language changes over time and the number of languages it has been translated into has grown than with any increased knowledge.  I also think that you forget that Christians don't claim that their God is the only deity - the Bible is full of references to other deities.  What is different is that this deity claimed that he is the only one who has the best for humanity at heart.  The fact that some humans have used the faith that people have in said deity to their own ends is a different matter - and could probably apply in the case of your deities as well.

All that said, perhaps you would care to rephrase your complaints.

[Hope]

You could say 'i have no proof ,I have no evidence, its purely unsupported faith in something I want to be true' A least that way you would be telling the truth.

I suppose we could just say that, Walter, especially the highlighted bits but it would be lying - and you obviously don't want us to lie.

[Nearly Sane]

Could it be that they are just that - 'prey to weaknesses and foibles as we (are)' - that makes them unattractive to such as me, owl?
Interestingly enough, The Christian God does none of this either, so what's the complaint?
So, what makes them worth respecting ot treating in a worthy fashion? 

I admit, and here is the biggest difference between my beliefs and those of the ULTRA-Christians of all sects and levels of belief here, I know that my beliefs are just that, beliefs, they are a matter of faith and not, so far as I, or, in my opinion, anyone else can show evidentially, factual/real.
Might I point out, Owl, that the book you so happily disparage has never been 'up-dated' due to any 'ever-increasing knowledge of our world' - if anything that ever-increasing knowledge has simply added detail to what the Bible says.  I accept that the language has had to change over the centuries, but that has more to do with the way in which language changes over time and the number of languages it has been translated into has grown than with any increased knowledge.  I also think that you forget that Christians don't claim that their God is the only deity - the Bible is full of references to other deities.  What is different is that this deity claimed that he is the only one who has the best for humanity at heart.  The fact that some humans have used the faith that people have in said deity to their own ends is a different matter - and could probably apply in the case of your deities as well.

All that said, perhaps you would care to rephrase your complaints.

Just quick poll on here of Christians, how many of you are polytheists like Hope?

[Gonnagle]

Dear Walt,

I am being perfectly serious ( it's God that is having a laugh ) do you see the trillions of atoms that go to make you, no! Do you see the billions of neurons firing away between your lugoles!! No! Do you see that wonderful thing you/we call the imagination, no!! Do you see that wonderful uniqueness, no!! We are all unique! All the evidence you will ever need.

Of course, if you are a complete skeptic and the above does not convince you that we are more than just the sum of our parts then go and listen to our greatest composers or our greatest poets or even gaze upon a beautiful work of art, all evidence for God.

Now go and worship him/her/it, a simple thanks will suffice, or better still, go and help one of his less fortunate children, your place in heaven will be guaranteed.

Say Amen Brother, Amen.

Gonnagle.

[Walter]

Dear Walt,

I am being perfectly serious ( it's God that is having a laugh ) do you see the trillions of atoms that go to make you, no! Do you see the billions of neurons firing away between your lugoles!! No! Do you see that wonderful thing you/we call the imagination, no!! Do you see that wonderful uniqueness, no!! We are all unique! All the evidence you will ever need.

Of course, if you are a complete skeptic and the above does not convince you that we are more than just the sum of our parts then go and listen to our greatest composers or our greatest poets or even gaze upon a beautiful work of art, all evidence for God.

Now go and worship him/her/it, a simple thanks will suffice, or better still, go and help one of his less fortunate children, your place in heaven will be guaranteed.

Say Amen Brother, Amen.

Gonnagle.

and you say it all with a straight face , well done, that must be a skill.

[Owlswing]

Or an outside lav.

  LOL! 

[Owlswing]

Maybe they were  seduced by the scientific revolution, dunno.

Are you saying, translated into basic language, science has fucked Christianity?

[Walter]

Are ypu saying, translated into basic language, science has fucked Christianity?

whatever he is saying the last part of your sentence is true.

[Aruntraveller]

Language Timothy ! 

[Nearly Sane]

whatever he is saying the last part of your sentence is true.

has it? How?

[Walter]

has it? How?

I think you are  intentionally in denial if you have to ask that.

[Nearly Sane]

I think you are  intentionally in denial if you have to ask that.

That's nice for you but it's not really an argument, is it?

[Owlswing]

Could it be that they are just that - 'prey to weaknesses and foibles as we (are)' - that makes them unattractive to such as me, owl?
Interestingly enough, The Christian God does none of this either, so what's the complaint?
So, what makes them worth respecting ot treating in a worthy fashion? 

I admit, and here is the biggest difference between my beliefs and those of the ULTRA-Christians of all sects and levels of belief here, I know that my beliefs are just that, beliefs, they are a matter of faith and not, so far as I, or, in my opinion, anyone else can show evidentially, factual/real.
Might I point out, Owl, that the book you so happily disparage has never been 'up-dated' due to any 'ever-increasing knowledge of our world' - if anything that ever-increasing knowledge has simply added detail to what the Bible says.  I accept that the language has had to change over the centuries, but that has more to do with the way in which language changes over time and the number of languages it has been translated into has grown than with any increased knowledge.  I also think that you forget that Christians don't claim that their God is the only deity - the Bible is full of references to other deities.  What is different is that this deity claimed that he is the only one who has the best for humanity at heart.  The fact that some humans have used the faith that people have in said deity to their own ends is a different matter - and could probably apply in the case of your deities as well.

All that said, perhaps you would care to rephrase your complaints.

I will not rephrase one sentence or change one word!

Why?

Because I am totally fed up with you and your everlasting dismissal of what I say about my beliefs and faith because you and the rest of your pathetic, insecure, bunch of Christians cannot stand to admit that your beliefs are just that. You claim a truth and respect that you and your religion, because of this refusal, deserve neither.

You have had the speciousness of your arguments pointed out to you a million or more times on here by dozens of posters and still you refuse to budge one inch toward what is really the truth and not the bullshit version of the 'truth' peddled by your religion and its adherents.

As I have said here before and am not sorry to repeat, I would hope that there is more truth on your claims for a world wide circle of friends of high educational levels and of all classes and religions, even Kevin Carlyon (King of the White Witches - in his own imagination - every other witch thinks he is an arse), if I remember rightly (if not I apologise) and your world travels and that your career as a teacher was more filled with proven truths than your posts here as if your teaching was as accurate as your posts I dread to think how your students fared in the real world.

You may now re-join Sassy on my list of posters not worth responding to (there are two on it atthe moment) as they never bother listening to anyone but the voice of their God in their ears telling them that what everyone else posts is rubbish to be ignored.

[Walter]

That's nice for you but it's not really an argument, is it?

do you want to get into an argument, NS?

[Nearly Sane]

do you want to get into an argument, NS?

a discussion, where to justify your position you would put forward an argument or set of arguments, would be more interesting to me than you just making statements and not engaging when asked to justify them.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Sane,

I think what Wigs is referring to is this,

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2009/jul/12/religion-christianity-belief-science

But during the modern period, scientific logos became so successful that myth was discredited, the logos of scientific rationalism became the only valid path to truth, and Newton and Descartes claimed it was possible to prove God's existence, something earlier Jewish, Christian and Muslim theologians had vigorously denied. Christians bought into the scientific theology, and some embarked on the doomed venture of turning their faith's mythos into logos.

Although I could be completely wrong, it is the Sainted Wigs we are dealing with

Gonnagle.