Author Topic: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence  (Read 89644 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #75 on: October 31, 2016, 02:22:20 PM »
Dear Sane,

I think what Wigs is referring to is this,

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2009/jul/12/religion-christianity-belief-science

Although I could be completely wrong, it is the Sainted Wigs we are dealing with :o

Gonnagle.

Yes, I think that is what he is talking about too, Gonzo. But I don't think he would be of the opinion that 'science has fucked Christianity'

Owlswing

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #76 on: October 31, 2016, 02:27:50 PM »

Yes, I think that is what he is talking about too, Gonzo. But I don't think he would be of the opinion that 'science has fucked Christianity'


OK - I use the tense of the post I was quoting - maybe I should have said that science is fucking Christianity.

The more science discovers the less relevant, or true, some parts of the Bible clearly are, the Flood  for one.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

wigginhall

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #77 on: October 31, 2016, 02:28:07 PM »
Are you saying, translated into basic language, science has fucked Christianity?

Not really.   It's as if an inferiority complex came over Christians, so that they had to justify their ideas via argument and evidence, as if it were a scientific proposition.   This just produces nonsense usually.

The quote given by Gonners is quite good, from Karen Armstrong, about mythos and logos.   I tend to use the word 'symbolic', but it's the same really.   Armstrong also stresses practice, rather than belief, or in the old saying, praxis not doxis.

But I'm guessing really.  I don't know why Christians get so tied up in the effort to prove their ideas 'true'; maybe they're useful (to some), and leave it at that. 
They were the footprints of a gigantic hound!

Gordon

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #78 on: October 31, 2016, 02:35:14 PM »
OK - I use the tense of the post I was quoting - maybe I should have said that science is fucking Christianity.

The more science discovers the less relevant, or true, some parts of the Bible clearly are, the Flood  for one.

Even though the idea of a literal global flood is, of course, nonsense even a grizzled old atheist like me can see that if the tale is allegorical and not literal then its 'value' isn't aimed at likes of me. 

Nearly Sane

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #79 on: October 31, 2016, 02:41:49 PM »
OK - I use the tense of the post I was quoting - maybe I should have said that science is fucking Christianity.

The more science discovers the less relevant, or true, some parts of the Bible clearly are, the Flood  for one.
which is only relevant to Biblical literalists, there are many others who don't take the literal position, and indeed the literal position is in many ways a relative novelty.

Walter

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #80 on: October 31, 2016, 02:42:17 PM »
a discussion, where to justify your position you would put forward an argument or set of arguments, would be more interesting to me than you just making statements and not engaging when asked to justify them.

unfortunately I'm not going to engage in any arguments that revolve around peoples' religious beliefs, that only implies that what they say has any value . I will make statements though (as you put it). It is not up to me to do the justifying.
thank you.

Nearly Sane

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #81 on: October 31, 2016, 02:44:27 PM »
unfortunately I'm not going to engage in any arguments that revolve around peoples' religious beliefs, that only implies that what they say has any value . I will make statements though (as you put it). It is not up to me to do the justifying.
thank you.
Your claim, your burden of proof. To quote the St Christopher of Hutchens, that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Nearly Sane

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #82 on: October 31, 2016, 02:47:11 PM »
Not really.   It's as if an inferiority complex came over Christians, so that they had to justify their ideas via argument and evidence, as if it were a scientific proposition.   This just produces nonsense usually.

The quote given by Gonners is quite good, from Karen Armstrong, about mythos and logos.   I tend to use the word 'symbolic', but it's the same really.   Armstrong also stresses practice, rather than belief, or in the old saying, praxis not doxis.

But I'm guessing really.  I don't know why Christians get so tied up in the effort to prove their ideas 'true'; maybe they're useful (to some), and leave it at that.

As you know, I'm in agreement with you on this. The obsession that some seem to have to go down the resemblance of the scientific method send to miss the point of both science and religion.

Walter

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #83 on: October 31, 2016, 02:47:51 PM »
Your claim, your burden of proof. To quote the St Christopher of Hutchens, that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

dead right NS ,oh and btw its Hitchens and he's no saint

Nearly Sane

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #84 on: October 31, 2016, 02:49:40 PM »
dead right NS ,oh and btw its Hitchens and he's no saint
Which, therefore, means that since you are unwilling to put forward any argument for your position, you agree that your position should be dismissed.

Walter

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #85 on: October 31, 2016, 02:56:03 PM »
Which, therefore, means that since you are unwilling to put forward any argument for your position, you agree that your position should be dismissed.

You are confusing position with claim . I make no claims , my position can be validated if you care to find the information.

Nearly Sane

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #86 on: October 31, 2016, 03:02:12 PM »
You are confusing position with claim . I make no claims , my position can be validated if you care to find the information.

To go back to what I asked to you to justify?

Owlswing wrote:
'Are ypu saying, translated into basic language, science has fucked Christianity?'


To which you replied:
'whatever he is saying the last part of your sentence is true.'

Stating something to be true here is both a position and a claim. A claim that you are refusing to justify. Therefore since you think Hitchens was right, you think your own position should be dismissed. Asking others to prove it true or false us simply a shifting the burden of proof.

Walter

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #87 on: October 31, 2016, 03:05:24 PM »
which is only relevant to Biblical literalists, there are many others who don't take the literal position, and indeed the literal position is in many ways a relative novelty.

how do you arrive at that conclusion ?  relative novelty. 

Walter

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #88 on: October 31, 2016, 03:22:17 PM »
To go back to what I asked to you to justify?

Owlswing wrote:
'Are ypu saying, translated into basic language, science has fucked Christianity?'


To which you replied:
'whatever he is saying the last part of your sentence is true.'

Stating something to be true here is both a position and a claim. A claim that you are refusing to justify. Therefore since you think Hitchens was right, you think your own position should be dismissed. Asking others to prove it true or false us simply a shifting the burden of proof.

oh dear, it is not my claim, as in Evolution does not belong to Darwin. It is plain to see what science has done to Christianity, you can find that information for yourself if you want to

Nearly Sane

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #89 on: October 31, 2016, 03:31:01 PM »
how do you arrive at that conclusion ?  relative novelty.
It's a description rather than a conclusion, and it's one that was qualified so I'll expand on it. It is clear that it has not been Christianity's sole opinion that everything in the Bible is literally true, as we can see given that Augustine warned against such thinking. That said, there is obviously some ideas that have been challenged which have essentially been seen as literally true e.g. the idea that the sun orbited the earth, though teven there sine of the strength of reaction against that idea cane from the high regard for Aristotle. Further, the Copernican revolution, came from a strong Christian.

It's then when as covered in wigginhall and Gonnagle's posts on here you get a set, and sects. Of Christianity who react in two ways to the scientific revolution. One set going down the rational apologetics route, and creating 'rational' arguments for Christianity, arguably starting with Descartes, and nowadays most prominently represented by William Lane Craig (which I cannot but help think is a sad decline). The other set became in reaction to the challenge fixed on the idea that science could be in opposition to the Bible as they read and had to then be challenged, and this  is definitely clear and known in the late 1700s.

Now whether that qualifies as relative novelty over the course of 2 thousand years, and with the strand of thought extant before that in Judaism that the OT was allegorical, is a matter if opinion and perspective but certainly is what it seems to me.





Nearly Sane

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #90 on: October 31, 2016, 03:33:49 PM »
oh dear, it is not my claim, as in Evolution does not belong to Darwin. It is plain to see what science has done to Christianity, you can find that information for yourself if you want to
Evasion and continued lack of evidence, along with repeated assertion noted.

Maeght

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #91 on: October 31, 2016, 03:44:12 PM »
Evasion and continued lack of evidence, along with repeated assertion noted.

Only just now?

Walter

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #92 on: October 31, 2016, 03:48:02 PM »
Evasion and continued lack of evidence, along with repeated assertion noted.

we seem to be getting into a muddle here NS .I refer you to the OP

And I'm not evading anything and any assertions I make can be backed up with evidence open to all.  Anybody can look it up

Nearly Sane

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #93 on: October 31, 2016, 03:49:27 PM »
we seem to be getting into a muddle here NS .I refer you to the OP

And I'm not evading anything and any assertions I make can be backed up with evidence open to all.  Anybody can look it up

He asserted.

Owlswing

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #94 on: October 31, 2016, 03:58:33 PM »

We seem to be getting into a muddle here NS. I refer you to the OP

And I'm not evading anything and any assertions I make can be backed up with evidence open to all.  Anybody can look it up


Walter

My I offer you a piece of advice?

Beware of NS! He is a long time denizen of this forum and is a Devil's Advocate of considerable experience and skill!

He can sit on a 5-row barbed wire fence in his shreddies and feel no pain and experience no injury!
« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 05:14:18 PM by Owlswing »
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Nearly Sane

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #95 on: October 31, 2016, 04:04:04 PM »
Walter

My I offer you a piece of advice?

Beware of NS! He is a long time denizen of this forum and is a Devil's Advocate of considerable experience and skill!

He can sit on a 5-row barbed wire fence in his shreddies and feel no pain and expeience no injury!

You say the sweetest things, dear old wol.

Walter

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #96 on: October 31, 2016, 04:07:31 PM »
Walter

My I offer you a piece of advice?

Beware of NS! He is a long time denizen of this forum and is a Devil's Advocate of considerable experience and skill!

He can sit on a 5-row barbed wire fence in his shreddies and feel no pain and expeience no injury!


I have no fear, but thanks anyway.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #97 on: October 31, 2016, 04:25:00 PM »
Walter,

Quote
Blue,
you crack me up

Thanks (I think!).

Sadly, levity aside, it's exactly Hope-ism, which is presumably why he's just ignored it. I'll readily bet you though my last Rolo that after going quiet for a bit he'll return yet again with an NPF "argument". He is it seems addicted to it.   
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Owlswing

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #98 on: October 31, 2016, 05:14:54 PM »

You say the sweetest things, dear old wol.


Why, thank you, kind Sir!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Owlswing

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #99 on: October 31, 2016, 05:16:54 PM »
Walter,

Thanks (I think!).

Sadly, levity aside, it's exactly Hope-ism, which is presumably why he's just ignored it. I'll readily bet you though my last Rolo that after going quiet for a bit he'll return yet again with an NPF "argument". He is it seems addicted to it.

He is addicted to anything that he thinks will turn his opponents arrows of truth astray!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!