AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence

[Walter]

You ask God for the gift of discernment.

why didn't I think of that? its so simple. its for the simple.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I'm a very straight forward sort of bloke. Either something IS or it ISN'T so I have no time for all this wishy washy stuff you talk about. As long as they keep it all to themselves and don't involve anybody else they can believe what they want .But they should expect ridicule from people like me if they try to.

There are lots of areas and concepts where we haven't established what IS or ISN'T. Different methods are tried to investigate these areas.

This thread seemed to be about the current lack of a method to investigate supernatural concepts. Hence people believe in stuff based on their interpretations of their personal experiences but have no way of establishing that their interpretation is correct. All they can do is adopt a position or identity and adapt their morals and behaviour as if their interpretations and beliefs are correct, within the limits of the law of the land.

Ridicule is just one way of expressing disagreement with someone else's opinion/ beliefs about religion/ politics/ ethics/ morals etc. Disagreeing with someone's attempts to get their beliefs to be incorporated into legislature is part of the political and legislative process. Being ridiculed for your beliefs or opinions is not a big problem is it?

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

But there is only one God, and if you sincerely ask for discernment you will get it.

But the muslim says, "there is only one Allah", the leprechauns says, "there is only one Colin", the etc etc

So again - why should I accept your claims rather than those of any of the other nine people?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

AB,

But the muslim says, "there is only one Allah", the leprechauns says, "there is only one Colin", the etc etc

So again - why should I accept your claims rather than those of any of the other nine people?

Allah is the Arabic word for god so takes you back to the only one god belief.

If I meet a leprechaun I will try to remember to ask if Colin refers to a similar concept in Irish Gaelic.

[Walter]

There are lots of areas and concepts where we haven't established what IS or ISN'T. Different methods are tried to investigate these areas.

This thread seemed to be about the current lack of a method to investigate supernatural concepts. Hence people believe in stuff based on their interpretations of their personal experiences but have no way of establishing that their interpretation is correct. All they can do is adopt a position or identity and adapt their morals and behaviour as if their interpretations and beliefs are correct, within the limits of the law of the land.

Ridicule is just one way of expressing disagreement with someone else's opinion/ beliefs about religion/ politics/ ethics/ morals etc. Disagreeing with someone's attempts to get their beliefs to be incorporated into legislature is part of the political and legislative process. Being ridiculed for your beliefs or opinions is not a big problem is it?

[floo]

There is no evidence any god exists apart from in the minds of human believers. All the gods people worship have an equal status in the credibility stakes, imo.

[Walter]

Sorry pressed wrong key


Gabby

I would like to see a time where all religions are banned in public places, schools, goverments , local councils.
And it should be an offence to introduce religion to children until they reach 18, a bit like the drinking of alcohol laws.
 
.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Sorry pressed wrong key


Gabby

I would like to see a time where all religions are banned in public places, schools, goverments , local councils.
And it should be an offence to introduce religion to children until they reach 18, a bit like the drinking of alcohol laws.
 
.

Interesting idea. Define banned. How would you word the law - will saying OMG in public be a breach of the ban? Will a religious organisation fundraising in public for the homeless be a breach of the ban?

How do you stop parents introducing religion to children? A ban won't happen - for one thing, it can't be enforced.

[Walter]

Interesting idea. Define banned. How would you word the law - will saying OMG in public be a breach of the ban? Will a religious organisation fundraising in public for the homeless be a breach of the ban?

How do you stop parents introducing religion to children? A ban won't happen - for one thing, it can't be enforced.

of course you are right. Its just my thoughts out loud but its a basis of an idea that with careful thought could become meaningful.
BTW I thought you were on holiday.

[Sebastian Toe]

But there is only one God, and if you sincerely ask for discernment you will get it.

Are you dizzy yet?

[floo]

We allowed our children to decide for themselves about religion.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

of course you are right. Its just my thoughts out loud but its a basis of an idea that with careful thought could become meaningful.

I'd stick with trying to persuade people to become atheist - far cheaper than what you're proposing. You won't get funding to enforce your meaningful idea. 

BTW I thought you were on holiday.

Got back yesterday.

[Walter]

I'd stick with trying to persuade people to become atheist - far cheaper than what you're proposing. You won't get funding to enforce your meaningful idea.  Got back yesterday.

again you are right .
oh, and I really missed you 

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

again you are right .
oh, and I really missed you 

Thanks. Does this mean that when you were working up north in Muslim populated areas, you found other Muslims you got on with?

[wigginhall]

But there is only one God, and if you sincerely ask for discernment you will get it.

My Sufi friend used to say that.  Now I'm torn.

[SusanDoris]

Sorry pressed wrong key
Gabby
I would like to see a time where all religions are banned in public places, schools, goverments , local councils.
And it should be an offence to introduce religion to children until they reach 18, a bit like the drinking of alcohol laws.
 
.

I do not agree with this last sentence. Religions have been an integral part of peoples in history and, as it is important that all children should learn as much as they can about history, this part of it must include information about such religious beliefs. Definitely not [/I]taught[/I] that they are true of course. It is only as much knowledge as possible ABOUT the past that will enable better decisions will be made in the future.

There is of course one mammoth exception to this idea today -  Trump.

[Walter]

Thanks. Does this mean that when you were working up north in Muslim populated areas, you found other Muslims you got on with?

There were a few , but doing business with them was always hard work. Some times breaking off in the middle of a deal while they went to the mosque and I
 was left twiddling my thumbs till they came back.
Highly immoral practices were abound, only just the right side of the law. Considering they we so religious I found it fascinating.

[torridon]

I see the hand of God in everything I perceive.  Some small examples - the means of extracting nitrogen from the earth's atmosphere to bring essential nitrates into the soil by using lightning.  (see Nitrogen Fixation).  Or the precise size and position of the moon to ensure that our beaches and coastlines are kept clean by the action of the tides, facilitating the transfer of sea life to land.

I think you need to look up The Anthropic Principle

It's a classic mistake of a narcissistic mind to mistake rarity for privilege. We are here to wonder at these things because our planet has rare properties that have been favourable for the development of sentient beings that can wonder.

Either that or there is a god with magic powers that has fixed things like the mass and distance of the moon just so but he didn't do the same for Venus or Mars etc. for reasons unexplained.

This really ought to be a no-brainer.

[Walter]

I do not agree with this last sentence. Religions have been an integral part of peoples in history and, as it is important that all children should learn as much as they can about history, this part of it must include information about such religious beliefs. Definitely not [/I]taught[/I] that they are true of course. It is only as much knowledge as possible ABOUT the past that will enable better decisions will be made in the future.

There is of course one mammoth exception to this idea today -  Trump.

I agree teaching about religion is important. Teaching any of it is true is outrageous.

[bluehillside Retd.]

torri,

I think you need to look up The Anthropic Principle

It's a classic mistake of a narcissistic mind to mistake rarity for privilege. We are here to wonder at these things because our planet has rare properties that have been favourable for the development of sentient beings that can wonder.

Either that or there is a god with magic powers that has fixed things like the mass and distance of the moon just so but he didn't do the same for Venus or Mars etc. for reasons unexplained.

This really ought to be a no-brainer.

Is it solipsistic in here, or is it just me?

[Walter]

torri,

Is it solipsistic in here, or is it just me?

you still crack me up

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

There were a few , but doing business with them was always hard work. Some times breaking off in the middle of a deal while they went to the mosque and I was left twiddling my thumbs till they came back.
Highly immoral practices were abound, only just the right side of the law. Considering they we so religious I found it fascinating.

Doing business with people who are different is usually hard work. Business is often more about relationships than anything else - people like to do business with people they like, trust, who they think can relate to them and understand their issues.

You could think of it as a useful training ground in the art of learning to get on with different people who have different customs and practices. It's the same for everyone doing business. Playing golf or corporate hospitality or going to the pub seems a weird way of doing business to me but there you go.

I think the thought process people use to justify their behaviour is fascinating - regardless of whether they claim to be religious or not - it's all down to their own interpretations of morality. We all have arbitrary lines we don't cross.   

[wigginhall]

I think you need to look up The Anthropic Principle

It's a classic mistake of a narcissistic mind to mistake rarity for privilege. We are here to wonder at these things because our planet has rare properties that have been favourable for the development of sentient beings that can wonder.

Either that or there is a god with magic powers that has fixed things like the mass and distance of the moon just so but he didn't do the same for Venus or Mars etc. for reasons unexplained.

This really ought to be a no-brainer.

Nicely put.  Did AB really say that he sees God's hand in everything?  OK, ebola, brain cancer, zika - WTF is that about, God?

[Alan Burns]

I think you need to look up The Anthropic Principle

It's a classic mistake of a narcissistic mind to mistake rarity for privilege. We are here to wonder at these things because our planet has rare properties that have been favourable for the development of sentient beings that can wonder.

Either that or there is a god with magic powers that has fixed things like the mass and distance of the moon just so but he didn't do the same for Venus or Mars etc. for reasons unexplained.

But how many favourable coincidences does it take to nurture life?
And how many favourable coincidences will it take to show evidence of divine intervention?

[ekim]

I'm a very straight forward sort of bloke. Either something IS or it ISN'T  so I have no time for all this wishy washy stuff you talk about. As long as they keep it all to themselves and don't involve anybody else they can believe what they want .But they should expect ridicule from people like me if they try to.

Some people like wishy washy stuff and get great joy from it.  If others ask for the secret of that joy which is real to them they might feel obliged to share it with those others.  I am sure that they do expect ridicule both from the crooked and the straightforward people.  Many have endured a crown of thorns in some form or other.  They often see it as a test of their faith and simply forgive those who can only express themselves in ridicule.