AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The 'something from nothing' idea is cited by some Christians with bated breath, as if here there is some deadly argument against  certain cosmological ideas.   In fact, they are displaying a kind of naive Dunning Kruger effect - I mean they are talking bollocks.   How many rest on an in-depth knowledge of cosmology, mathematics, and physics?   Not many, I think.   It's another example of diluted sciencey stuff, or half-baked ideas.   If somebody can oppose  the idea of 'something from nothing' by means of a series of arguments, which are based on genuine scientific findings, go for it, with citations please.

Dunning Kruger? Do you have any measurement of anybody's ability or are you Dunning Krugering it yourself Wigginhall?

[Gordon]

And how would that be?

In the time-honoured manner: by assuming his conclusion.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

In the time-honoured manner: by assuming his conclusion.

Oh you mean like the circular argument behind naturalism....why didn't you say?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Anybody who has actually studied religions knows that THERE ARE DIFFERENCES between them. I'm not at all sure there is a Holy spirit equivalent in Islam who gives charismatic gifts. The only gift Colin gives his followers is the gift of category fucking if you are anything to go by.

What's a charismatic gift?

Anyway, in the interests of the study of religions, different translators of Arabic have used varying terms. Pickthall for example translates Quran 40:15 as

"The Exalter of Ranks, the Lord of the Throne. He causeth the Spirit of His command upon whom He will of His slaves, that He may warn of the Day of Meeting,"

There are various other verses, which have also been translated using the term "Spirit" - if you Google it.

I have nothing to offer regarding Colin.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What's a charismatic gift?

Thank you Gabriella. I think your opening comment underlines that religions are not identical copies of each other.

I also think that if you debate in opposition to somebody you need to know what their position is rather than having a one size fits all approach.

[Gordon]

Oh you mean like the circular argument behind naturalism....why didn't you say?

No, I mean like the KCA.

[wigginhall]

Dunning Kruger? Do you have any measurement of anybody's ability or are you Dunning Krugering it yourself Wigginhall?

It's not their ability I'm questioning.  It's their arguments, or lack of, and their apparent ignorance of what 'something from nothing' might involve.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No, I mean like the KCA.

careful now...I was accused of pulling a KCA when I wasn't.
For me a KCA isn't necessary to flag up the supernatural(that which is not explicable by science) and neither has it been disproved.

Hillside tried to shuffle something about asking the question ''why something and not nothing'' but that turned out to be some ''no true atheist'' cobblers.

As you know from the summer debate nobody successfully managed to get round the fact that either the universe pops up ex nihilo or it is uncreated and self moved.

No need for a KCA although I realise how important it is for you guys to continue to accuse people of it.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

It's not their ability I'm questioning.  It's their arguments, or lack of, and their apparent ignorance of what 'something from nothing' might involve.

Dunning Kruger isn't about arguments it's about ability surely?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Thank you Gabriella. I think your opening comment underlines that religions are not identical copies of each other.

I also think that if you debate in opposition to somebody you need to know what their position is rather than having a one size fits all approach.

Actually I'm a multiple interpretations kind of gal. Definitely not a one size fits all.

I just wondered what your particular interpretation of a "charismatic gift" was - curiosity rather than opposition. Maybe you've explained it on another thread?

[Gordon]

No need for a KCA although I realise how important it is for you guys to continue to accuse people of it.

I was simply pointing out Sword was using the same fallacy: but I see that didn't stop you having a wee rant anyway.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Actually I'm a multiple interpretations kind of gal. Definitely not a one size fits all.

I just wondered what your particular interpretation of a "charismatic gift" was - curiosity rather than opposition. Maybe you've explained it on another thread?

A fair question. I understand them to be different abilities granted to different individuals by a God who has a dynamic and intimate proximity with whom He wills on a long term or short term basis according to His will. Hope that is in the way of an explanation.

[bluehillside Retd.]

A fair question. I understand them to be different abilities granted to different individuals by a God who has a dynamic and intimate proximity with whom He wills on a long term or short term basis according to His will. Hope that is in the way of an explanation.

How do I know there's a God? Because I have these special powers of magical discernment.

How do I know I have these magic powers? Because God gave them to me.

How do I know there's a God? Because I have these special powers of magical discernment.

How do I know I have these magic powers? Because God gave them to me.

How do I know there's a God? Because I have these special powers of magical discernment.

How do I know I have these magic powers? Because God gave them to me...

And round and round he goes. Where he'll stop, nobody knows. Is anyone else feeling dizzy yet?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

How do I know there's a God? Because I have these special powers of magical discernment.

How do I know I have these magic powers? Because God gave them to me.

How do I know there's a God? Because I have these special powers of magical discernment.

How do I know I have these magic powers? Because God gave them to me.

How do I know there's a God? Because I have these special powers of magical discernment.

How do I know I have these magic powers? Because God gave them to me...

And round and round he goes. Where he'll stop, nobody knows. Is anyone else feeling dizzy yet?

I think knowledge of new things is through the experience of acquiring them isn't it?
I think its fair to ask whether we all experience God all of the time or glimpse him or whether discerning him is because he chooses to reveal himself to you.

I think we discern God and don't like what we are discerning. He is after all potentially the greatest shock an ego can experience and the ego would want to defend itself from  'getting in too deep'

[Alan Burns]

Atomic matter is more complex than the plasma from which it formed; molecular matter is more complex than the atomic matter from which it formed; long chain organic molecules are more complex than simple molecular matter.  I don't know where you get this idea there is no evidence of increasing complexity - the evidence is well known and understood.  The primary forces of nature - gravity, electromagnetism and the nuclears conspire to create greater complexity from simpler constituents and this is balanced by the tendency of thermodynamics to break order down.  All this happens according to well understood unguided insentient deterministic principles. No magic required.

But science shows us that the complexity required to develop life is very specific and has narrow constraints.  You are correct in your observation that this universe is generally hostile to nurturing life, which surely confirms the need for intelligently driven events to guide the process.

[Walter]

But science shows us that the complexity required to develop life is very specific and has narrow constraints.  You are correct in your observation that this universe is generally hostile to nurturing life, which surely confirms the need for intelligently driven events to guide the process.

so what's the point of the rest of the universe if its hostile to life ?  I thought your god liked being worshipped. He seems to be very wasteful, or stupid.

[Sebastian Toe]

But science shows us that the complexity required to develop life is very specific and has narrow constraints.  You are correct in your observation that this universe is generally hostile to nurturing life, which surely confirms the need for intelligently driven events to guide the process.

No,it surely doesn't.

[torridon]

But science shows us that the complexity required to develop life is very specific and has narrow constraints.  You are correct in your observation that this universe is generally hostile to nurturing life, which surely confirms the need for intelligently driven events to guide the process.

So why would an omnipotent  god get it so wrong in the first place.  Why would he design a universe to be inhospitable to life ? 

[torridon]

You'll also find that the muslim says, "you ask Allah for the gift of discernment", the leprechaunist says, "you ask Colin, the King of the Leprechauns for the gift of discernment", the etc etc.

But there is only one God, and if you sincerely ask for discernment you will get it.

'Allah' isn't a different god to the god of Christians and Jews.  It is the same one eternal omni god under a different name worshipped through a different cultural lens, but it must the same being unless you are a polytheist.  The resulting 'discernment' seems to fall in line with the cultural background of the believer.

[ekim]

So why would an omnipotent  god get it so wrong in the first place.  Why would he design a universe to be inhospitable to life ?

The belief might be that the dynamic universe is 'inhospitable' to life forms not life, which is why life forms change and evolve to compensate.  'Life' as the breath of God is eternal and changeless.

[Walter]

The belief might be that the dynamic universe is 'inhospitable' to life forms not life, which is why life forms change and evolve to compensate.  'Life' as the breath of God is eternal and changeless.

I cant make any sense of that , mike!

[Alan Burns]

So why would an omnipotent  god get it so wrong in the first place.  Why would he design a universe to be inhospitable to life ?

I do not know - yet.  Perhaps all will come clear when I meet up with God in heaven.

[floo]

So why would an omnipotent  god get it so wrong in the first place.  Why would he design a universe to be inhospitable to life ?

Because it is weird!

[Alan Burns]

'Allah' isn't a different god to the god of Christians and Jews.  It is the same one eternal omni god under a different name worshipped through a different cultural lens, but it must the same being unless you are a polytheist.  The resulting 'discernment' seems to fall in line with the cultural background of the believer.

Yes, it is the same God we all worship, but some may need God's gift of discernment to find the best road to salvation.  I know of some Muslims and Jews who have had the courage to convert to Christianity despite their cultural background.

[ippy]

Yes, it is the same God we all worship, but some may need God's gift of discernment to find the best road to salvation.  I know of some Muslims and Jews who have had the courage to convert to Christianity despite their cultural background.

There will always be con men around, they'll always find willing customers somewhere or the other.

ippy