AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence

[Walter]

Yes, it is the same God we all worship, but some may need God's gift of discernment to find the best road to salvation.  I know of some Muslims and Jews who have had the courage to convert to Christianity despite their cultural background.

this is a very genuine question, AB.
How does your god communicate with you and how do you know its him?

[wigginhall]

So why would an omnipotent  god get it so wrong in the first place.  Why would he design a universe to be inhospitable to life ?

It is a fantastic scenario, first, God creates a universe largely hostile to life, but then, thankfully, creates a few pockets which are conducive, and hello hello, we are able to watch X-factor on a Saturday night.

You could call it the elasticity of faith, or, in other words, there are no constraints.   If God wants to create blind fish, or flightless birds, or bacteria that live in petrol, this is his pleasure, don't you know?   

I suppose Christians who use these arguments,  don't see that having no constraints is an impediment to knowledge.

[Walter]

So why would an omnipotent  god get it so wrong in the first place.  Why would he design a universe to be inhospitable to life ?

he don't get it wrong, he didn't want to make life at all. It was negligence, we are the bacteria that lives in petrol and he hasn't noticed yet.

[wigginhall]

Better not light a match.

[Brownie]

There are, however, stories of people spontaneously combusting.

[wigginhall]

This stuff about no constraints reminds me of aTruster, who took a positive delight in the arbitrariness of God's plan.  I remember asking him why God made the Algerian nuthatch (rare bird), and of course aT replied, 'because it pleased him'.   It doesn't work so well with ebola and brain cancer though, I suppose that's Satan.   Elasticity rules!

[Walter]

elasticity rules,

not much good for taking precise measurements!

[Alan Burns]

Of course, those of a more thoughtful bent would point him towards the anthropic principle, Adams’ puddle, .....

May I just point out the obvious flaw in the Adams' puddle argument.

We can use the laws of gravity combined with the properties of liquid to show that any solid shape will be filled.  A very simple, easily verified explanation.

Now just consider how the upper arm fits so well into the socket on the shoulder bone.  The convex shape of the arm bone fits precisely into the concave shape of the shoulder, but giving sufficient freedom to move through large angles of orientation.  Every point on the curved surface of each bone is somehow defined in the DNA blueprint, together with the ability of each bone to grow in synchronisation, maintaining their perfect fit throughout the growth period.  We may well wonder how the crude 'natural selection' combined with random mutations could ever produce such a marvel of design, not just here but with every other bone joint in our bodies. 

[Maeght]

We may well wonder how the crude 'natural selection' combined with random mutations could ever produce such a marvel of design, not just here but with every other bone joint in our bodies.

Is that the Royal 'we'? You may wonder, but again, taht's personal incredulity.

[wigginhall]

Of course, labelling natural selection as 'crude' gives the game away here.   I'm not sure how AB arrives at that description; you could argue that in fact, it is extremely sensitive and fine-grained.   But AB wants to win the argument, so sticks that in as a kind of sure-fire winner, (tautology).

But anyway, any chance, AB, of an actual argument or citation as to why 'crude'?

[Alan Burns]

this is a very genuine question, AB.
How does your god communicate with you and how do you know its him?

Sometimes just sitting in prayerful silence in front of the blessed sacrament in church I get very profound awareness of God and His guiding thoughts.  Also my answers to prayer often come from the actions of other people who God brings into my life.  The most important ingredient in my relationship with God is prayer.

[wigginhall]

And dishonesty. 

[torridon]

Yes, it is the same God we all worship, but some may need God's gift of discernment to find the best road to salvation.  I know of some Muslims and Jews who have had the courage to convert to Christianity despite their cultural background.

and the same is true of the reverse, sometimes Christians convert to Islam.  If it is the same God why would he give differing 'discernment' to different people if there is only one 'best route' to salvation ?

[torridon]

May I just point out the obvious flaw in the Adams' puddle argument.

We can use the laws of gravity combined with the properties of liquid to show that any solid shape will be filled.  A very simple, easily verified explanation.

Now just consider how the upper arm fits so well into the socket on the shoulder bone.  The convex shape of the arm bone fits precisely into the concave shape of the shoulder, but giving sufficient freedom to move through large angles of orientation.  Every point on the curved surface of each bone is somehow defined in the DNA blueprint, together with the ability of each bone to grow in synchronisation, maintaining their perfect fit throughout the growth period.  We may well wonder how the crude 'natural selection' combined with random mutations could ever produce such a marvel of design, not just here but with every other bone joint in our bodies.

Eerm, that's not a flaw in the anthropic principle, that is just your personal incredulity at work again.

And if you want to go down the route of ball and socket joints being too perfect to be natural then you will also want attribute the genome of the cordyceps fungus that infects the brains of small animals thereby turning them into zombie slaves to your designer god

[Alan Burns]

and the same is true of the reverse, sometimes Christians convert to Islam.

I am quoting from personal experience.  I have had no personal contact with any Christian who has converted to Islam. 

[Walter]

Eerm, that's not a flaw in the anthropic principle, that is just your personal incredulity at work again.

And if you want to go down the route of ball and socket joints being too perfect to be natural then you will also want attribute the genome of the cordyceps fungus that infects the brains of small animals thereby turning them into zombie slaves to your designer god

I think he employs 'natural selection' when choosing what he accepts as attributed to his god

[Walter]

Sometimes just sitting in prayerful silence in front of the blessed sacrament in church I get very profound awareness of God and His guiding thoughts.  Also my answers to prayer often come from the actions of other people who God brings into my life.  The most important ingredient in my relationship with God is prayer.

whatever you think, that is NOT AN ANSWER

[wigginhall]

Natural selection is labelled as crude, when AB wants to show that it can't account for fine-grained stuff, but then we all know that God is an expert at fine-grained stuff, why there are all these citations which demonstrate that.

This is the fundamental dishonesty of these arguments; they do Christianity a disservice.

[Walter]

Natural selection is labelled as crude, when AB wants to show that it can't account for fine-grained stuff, but then we all know that God is an expert at fine-grained stuff, why there are all these citations which demonstrate that.

This is the fundamental dishonesty of these arguments; they do Christianity a disservice.

He is proof that evolution by natural selection is an ongoing process

[ippy]

Sometimes just sitting in prayerful silence in front of the blessed sacrament in church I get very profound awareness of God and His guiding thoughts.  Also my answers to prayer often come from the actions of other people who God brings into my life.  The most important ingredient in my relationship with God is prayer.

Alan, how do you know it's god and it's not the devil pretending to be god, whatever either of them might be.

ippy

[Sebastian Toe]

I am quoting from personal experience.  I have had no personal contact with any Christian who has converted to Islam.

So, really they might hsve a better experience than the people you know?

[ekim]

I cant make any sense of that , mike!

Well, it's based on Genesis 2:7 ...  "Yahweh Elohim formed the human out of soil from the ground, and He blew into his nostrils the breath of life; and the human became a living soul."  In other words, 'life' or 'living soul' is distinct from the physical body or life form.  The physical body or life form changes over time just as your body has since birth but the 'life' within hasn't, and so the 'inhospitable universe' affects only the form which 'life' inhabits.  According to the Gospel of John, Jesus identified with 'life'  ... I am the way, the truth and the life'.  Of course, for those who believe that life is an emergent property of the physical, then it doesn't apply and there is no living soul to be saved.

[Walter]

well , thanks for clearing that up .

[Walter]

Better not light a match.

I didn't start the fire 

[Nearly Sane]

I didn't start the fire 

It was always burning...