Author Topic: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence  (Read 85766 times)

Walter

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #525 on: November 10, 2016, 04:34:26 PM »
It was always burning...

good old B.J.

I'm partial to one now and again ;)

Nearly Sane

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« Last Edit: March 10, 2017, 09:23:33 AM by Nearly Sane »

SwordOfTheSpirit

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #527 on: November 10, 2016, 04:58:03 PM »
If somebody can oppose  the idea of 'something from nothing' by means of a series of arguments, which are based on genuine scientific findings, go for it, with citations please.
Ok, a couple of examples...

Newton's conservation of momentum law.
The total momentum before an impact remains unchanged after the impact. Now: If two particles collided and the total momentum increased after the impact, there would have to be a reason for that, otherwise the increase in momentum comes from nothing.

Newton's conservation of mechanical energy. Assuming no other forces acting on an object then the sum of its potential and kinetic energy remains constant. If I dropped a ball from a height of 1m above the ground and it bounced and reached a height of 3m above the ground, there would be an increase in its overall energy. Under normal circumstances, one would have to assume that a force was applied to the ball at some point in order to increase its potential energy, otherwise you are getting an increase in energy from nothing.
I haven't enough faith to be an atheist.

Nearly Sane

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #528 on: November 10, 2016, 05:00:06 PM »
Ok, a couple of examples...

Newton's conservation of momentum law.
The total momentum before an impact remains unchanged after the impact. Now: If two particles collided and the total momentum increased after the impact, there would have to be a reason for that, otherwise the increase in momentum comes from nothing.

Newton's conservation of mechanical energy. Assuming no other forces acting on an object then the sum of its potential and kinetic energy remains constant. If I dropped a ball from a height of 1m above the ground and it bounced and reached a height of 3m above the ground, there would be an increase in its overall energy. Under normal circumstances, one would have to assume that a force was applied to the ball at some point in order to increase its potential energy, otherwise you are getting an increase in energy from nothing.
you appear to be arguing against your own ideas here

SwordOfTheSpirit

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #529 on: November 10, 2016, 05:07:21 PM »
you appear to be arguing against your own ideas here
Could you expand on what you mean by this? Thanks.
I haven't enough faith to be an atheist.

Nearly Sane

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #530 on: November 10, 2016, 05:09:42 PM »
Could you expand on what you mean by this? Thanks.
you seem to be arguing for some form of naturalism based on non interventionism.

Walter

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #531 on: November 10, 2016, 06:03:41 PM »
Ok, a couple of examples...

Newton's conservation of momentum law.
The total momentum before an impact remains unchanged after the impact. Now: If two particles collided and the total momentum increased after the impact, there would have to be a reason for that, otherwise the increase in momentum comes from nothing.

Newton's conservation of mechanical energy. Assuming no other forces acting on an object then the sum of its potential and kinetic energy remains constant. If I dropped a ball from a height of 1m above the ground and it bounced and reached a height of 3m above the ground, there would be an increase in its overall energy. Under normal circumstances, one would have to assume that a force was applied to the ball at some point in order to increase its potential energy, otherwise you are getting an increase in energy from nothing.

newton's laws are incomplete in the field of quantum mechanics . Its like using apples to show oranges don't exist.

Walter

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« Last Edit: March 10, 2017, 09:24:49 AM by Nearly Sane »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #533 on: November 10, 2016, 06:27:32 PM »
so what's the point of the rest of the universe if its hostile to life ?  I thought your god liked being worshipped.
That's your God.

Walter

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #534 on: November 10, 2016, 08:10:52 PM »

Alan Burns

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #535 on: November 10, 2016, 08:20:00 PM »
Natural selection is labelled as crude, when AB wants to show that it can't account for fine-grained stuff, but then we all know that God is an expert at fine-grained stuff, why there are all these citations which demonstrate that.

This is the fundamental dishonesty of these arguments; they do Christianity a disservice.
I would have no problem with natural selection if there was a virtually infinite number of beneficial mutations for it to work on.  But this is not the case.  The vast majority of mutations are not beneficial.  If the natural selection process had to rely on purely random events to produce beneficial mutations, then I maintain that the description of "crude" is valid.  My argument is that there is evidence in the specific complexity of all life forms to indicate that some form of intelligently guided events are needed to produce sufficient beneficial mutations for evolution to work.  You may argue that my reasoning is based on my personal incredulity, but the opposite argument is based on personal optimism.  There is no definitive proof in either case, but the fact that acts of human free will can be used to manipulate natural forces to create intelligent design is an indication that our universe is not entirely driven by unguided deterministic events.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
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Walter

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #536 on: November 10, 2016, 08:39:31 PM »
I would have no problem with natural selection if there was a virtually infinite number of beneficial mutations for it to work on.  But this is not the case.  The vast majority of mutations are not beneficial.  If the natural selection process had to rely on purely random events to produce beneficial mutations, then I maintain that the description of "crude" is valid.  My argument is that there is evidence in the specific complexity of all life forms to indicate that some form of intelligently guided events are needed to produce sufficient beneficial mutations for evolution to work.  You may argue that my reasoning is based on my personal incredulity, but the opposite argument is based on personal optimism.  There is no definitive proof in either case, but the fact that acts of human free will can be used to manipulate natural forces to create intelligent design is an indication that our universe is not entirely driven by unguided deterministic events.

do you have training in this field?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #537 on: November 10, 2016, 09:05:22 PM »
I don't have one.
You have a God who you think doesn't exist.

Walter

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #538 on: November 10, 2016, 09:12:55 PM »
You have a God who you think doesn't exist.
what are you on about ? have I missed something?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #539 on: November 10, 2016, 09:51:46 PM »
AB,

Will you do something for me please? Will you read what I'm about to tell you, and actually think about it and then respond to that rather than repeat your misunderstanding of what evolutionary theory actually entails? 

Will you at least try?

Quote
I would have no problem with natural selection if there was a virtually infinite number of beneficial mutations for it to work on.  But this is not the case.  The vast majority of mutations are not beneficial.

Yes, which is exactly what you'd expect to see if there was no guiding hand at the tiller. When cells divide they make copies of their DNA, and sometimes those copies are not exact - so they're "mutations". For the most part those mutations make no difference to the organism, and sometime they're harmful and so reduce or eliminate the likelihood of the organism passing on its genetic legacy to descendants. Sometimes though the mutation will benefit the organism - resistance to a disease, sharper eyesight etc - which will confer a greater chance of inherited genetic success in subsequent generations and so, over time, that mutation will become embedded.   

Quote
If the natural selection process had to rely on purely random events to produce beneficial mutations, then I maintain that the description of "crude" is valid.

Then you maintain wrongly. You may think it to be "crude" (or "wasteful" would perhaps be a better description) but the unfathomably vast number of opportunities for it to occur means that it can nonetheless produce exquisitely well-adapted organisms like hummingbirds and octopi. The only way you could call it crude would be to draw an analogy with an engineer whose designs for computers kept producing machines that couldn't compute, or an architect who designed buildings that kept falling down. It's precisely because there is no designer that there's huge redundancy in evolution. If there actually was a "God" - or at least a competent one - then you wouldn't expect to see that redundancy at all. 

In other words the wastefulness you think to indicate a designer actually indicates the opposite of that - ie, no designer at all.

Quote
My argument is that there is evidence in the specific complexity of all life forms to indicate that some form of intelligently guided events are needed to produce sufficient beneficial mutations for evolution to work.  You may argue that my reasoning is based on my personal incredulity, but the opposite argument is based on personal optimism.

No, that's not the problem with your "argument" - or at least it's not the main one. The main one is something called the lottery winner's fallacy - ie, the lottery winner says, "Wow! The odds against me winning were 14-million-to-one, therefore there must be something special about me" whereas in fact, from Camelot's perspective, the odds were pretty much one, but they just didn't care about who won.

Similarly you've just assumed that people and oak trees and bumble bees must have been the intended objectives all along, so the chances of producing them by random means stretches your incredulity too far. Just like Camelot though, the universe doesn't know or care what species will emerge or even for that matter whether any species will emerge at all. The process is essentially blind, and thinking little old Alan Burns to have been what was intended all along is just looking through the wrong end of the telescope. You need in other words to start from the bottom up, not from the top down.   

Quote
There is no definitive proof in either case...

That's disingenuous - there's no "definitive proof" for any scientific theory. Not for germ theory of disease, not for the theory of gravity, not for the theory of evolution. Not for any of them. What all of them have though is vast numbers of facts that all support them, a falsification test, predictive power etc such that they provide hugely powerful explanations for the way the world works. Your "in either case" is attempting a false equivalence moreover. There's no definitive proof for natural childbirth either, but you can't just introduce stork theory as your alternative and claim there to be no definitive proof for either as if they deserve equal consideration.

Quote
...but the fact that acts of human free will can be used to manipulate natural forces to create intelligent design is an indication that our universe is not entirely driven by unguided deterministic events.

Leaving aside for now your continued misunderstanding of "free will", yes our species and others can clearly manipulate our environments but that says nothing at all to the conjecture that there must also therefore be a divine manipulator doing the same thing.   
« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 10:07:15 PM by bluehillside »
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jeremyp

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #540 on: November 10, 2016, 11:01:38 PM »
newton's laws are incomplete in the field of quantum mechanics . Its like using apples to show oranges don't exist.
Conservation of momentum and energy apply in quantum mechanics too.
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Walter

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #541 on: November 11, 2016, 12:32:46 AM »
Conservation of momentum and energy apply in quantum mechanics too.
I'm well aware of that . It was his use of those two examples to show that you cant get something from nothing that are wrong.

ippy

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #542 on: November 11, 2016, 12:42:09 AM »
AB,

Will you do something for me please? Will you read what I'm about to tell you, and actually think about it and then respond to that rather than repeat your misunderstanding of what evolutionary theory actually entails? 

Will you at least try?

Yes, which is exactly what you'd expect to see if there was no guiding hand at the tiller. When cells divide they make copies of their DNA, and sometimes those copies are not exact - so they're "mutations". For the most part those mutations make no difference to the organism, and sometime they're harmful and so reduce or eliminate the likelihood of the organism passing on its genetic legacy to descendants. Sometimes though the mutation will benefit the organism - resistance to a disease, sharper eyesight etc - which will confer a greater chance of inherited genetic success in subsequent generations and so, over time, that mutation will become embedded.   

Then you maintain wrongly. You may think it to be "crude" (or "wasteful" would perhaps be a better description) but the unfathomably vast number of opportunities for it to occur means that it can nonetheless produce exquisitely well-adapted organisms like hummingbirds and octopi. The only way you could call it crude would be to draw an analogy with an engineer whose designs for computers kept producing machines that couldn't compute, or an architect who designed buildings that kept falling down. It's precisely because there is no designer that there's huge redundancy in evolution. If there actually was a "God" - or at least a competent one - then you wouldn't expect to see that redundancy at all. 

In other words the wastefulness you think to indicate a designer actually indicates the opposite of that - ie, no designer at all.

No, that's not the problem with your "argument" - or at least it's not the main one. The main one is something called the lottery winner's fallacy - ie, the lottery winner says, "Wow! The odds against me winning were 14-million-to-one, therefore there must be something special about me" whereas in fact, from Camelot's perspective, the odds were pretty much one, but they just didn't care about who won.

Similarly you've just assumed that people and oak trees and bumble bees must have been the intended objectives all along, so the chances of producing them by random means stretches your incredulity too far. Just like Camelot though, the universe doesn't know or care what species will emerge or even for that matter whether any species will emerge at all. The process is essentially blind, and thinking little old Alan Burns to have been what was intended all along is just looking through the wrong end of the telescope. You need in other words to start from the bottom up, not from the top down.   

That's disingenuous - there's no "definitive proof" for any scientific theory. Not for germ theory of disease, not for the theory of gravity, not for the theory of evolution. Not for any of them. What all of them have though is vast numbers of facts that all support them, a falsification test, predictive power etc such that they provide hugely powerful explanations for the way the world works. Your "in either case" is attempting a false equivalence moreover. There's no definitive proof for natural childbirth either, but you can't just introduce stork theory as your alternative and claim there to be no definitive proof for either as if they deserve equal consideration.

Leaving aside for now your continued misunderstanding of "free will", yes our species and others can clearly manipulate our environments but that says nothing at all to the conjecture that there must also therefore be a divine manipulator doing the same thing.

I think you've got a good chance that AB'll accept this descroption of how evolution works quite well on its own without any outside agency Blue, I'll go down town to the nearest betting shop and put a couple of thousand pounds on AB admitting that he's got it wrong, do you think a couple of thousand pounds is enough?

ippy

SusanDoris

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #543 on: November 11, 2016, 06:09:43 AM »
I wonder if SotS has read #539?

Ippy - I agree. I think the chances of AB admitting he is wrong are just about zero, not even vanishingly small!
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Alan Burns

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #544 on: November 11, 2016, 10:56:17 AM »
AB,

Will you do something for me please? Will you read what I'm about to tell you, and actually think about it and then respond to that rather than repeat your misunderstanding of what evolutionary theory actually entails? 

Will you at least try? ..............................

BH,
Thank you for another detailed response to my post.

I fully understand what you are saying.

So in summing up, you believe that random errors in copying DNA have generated every minute detail of your human body.  Every bone, every bone joint, every blood cell, every skin cell, every nerve, every hair, every organ, every component of every organ, every brain cell ....

You also believe that each incremental step in these developments produced sufficient functionality in its own right to be passed on using natural selection.

I know I am not alone in doubting the probability of this all happening by a blind evolutionary process.  Scientists who dare to profess their doubts inevitably face unwarranted derision and character assassination from their atheist peers.  Dembski once likened the natural selection process to a blind man trying to find the solution to a Rubic's cube, asking his sighted friend, "is this it?".
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wigginhall

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #545 on: November 11, 2016, 11:35:11 AM »
I would have no problem with natural selection if there was a virtually infinite number of beneficial mutations for it to work on.  But this is not the case.  The vast majority of mutations are not beneficial.  If the natural selection process had to rely on purely random events to produce beneficial mutations, then I maintain that the description of "crude" is valid.  My argument is that there is evidence in the specific complexity of all life forms to indicate that some form of intelligently guided events are needed to produce sufficient beneficial mutations for evolution to work.  You may argue that my reasoning is based on my personal incredulity, but the opposite argument is based on personal optimism.  There is no definitive proof in either case, but the fact that acts of human free will can be used to manipulate natural forces to create intelligent design is an indication that our universe is not entirely driven by unguided deterministic events.

So you are saying that positive mutations are produced by God?   What about the neutral or negative mutations?  Why doesn't God stop them?   It's a hell of a way to run a universe, isn't it?   Positive stuff - we have good immune systems, so get over colds and minor illness; negative stuff - we get cancer and our immune system falters.    So God produces the immune system, and Satan the cancer?   Or is cancer a random accident, which God kind of overlooks?

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Sebastian Toe

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #546 on: November 11, 2016, 11:48:47 AM »
BH,
Thank you for another detailed response to my post.

I fully understand what you are saying.

So in summing up, you believe that random errors in copying DNA have generated every minute detail of your human body.  Every bone, every bone joint, every blood cell, every skin cell, every nerve, every hair, every organ, every component of every organ, every brain cell ....

You also believe that each incremental step in these developments produced sufficient functionality in its own right to be passed on using natural selection.

I know I am not alone in doubting the probability of this all happening by a blind evolutionary process.  Scientists who dare to profess their doubts inevitably face unwarranted derision and character assassination from their atheist peers.  Dembski once likened the natural selection process to a blind man trying to find the solution to a Rubic's cube, asking his sighted friend, "is this it?".
Is that the same Dembski who announced his resignation from all things Intelligent design in September this year?
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wigginhall

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #547 on: November 11, 2016, 11:57:42 AM »
Random errors have produced every detail in the human body?  Come on, AB, you know that that's dishonest. 

Oh, but you doubt that evolution can work blindly?  Ah well, then, all the research workers in genetics and evolutionary biology and anatomy should down tools, because your doubts trump all of that!

Also, 'atheist peers' is dishonest.  One of the key witnesses at the Dover trial was Kenneth Miller, well known cell biologist, and Roman Catholic. 

« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 12:04:51 PM by wigginhall »
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Alan Burns

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #548 on: November 11, 2016, 12:14:13 PM »
Is that the same Dembski who announced his resignation from all things Intelligent design in September this year?
He announced his retirement and moved on to other things, but he does not deny any of his past findings.
https://billdembski.com/
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Maeght

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Re: AN opportunity for the religious to provide their evidence
« Reply #549 on: November 11, 2016, 12:20:17 PM »

I know I am not alone in doubting the probability of this all happening by a blind evolutionary process.

Do you have any qualifications in the field to give your personal views any weight?

Quote
Scientists who dare to profess their doubts inevitably face unwarranted derision and character assassination from their atheist peers.

So do you think that all those who accept ToE by Natural Selection are atheists?